Your Brand's Messaging is Killing Your Sale - Tech Co-Founders Share How to Communicate Effectively

In this episode, Annie and Kristen, co-founders of Dakota Strategies, dive deep into the fundamental flaws of modern B2B messaging and why most companies are actively killing their sales with bad copy. They explain that as markets become more saturated and attention spans shrink, buyers have zero tolerance for fluff. If a company cannot concisely articulate the exact problem it solves, all downstream marketing and sales tactics will leak pipeline and waste resources. The core of their philosophy revolves around the narrative structure of storytelling: your customer is the hero, and your brand is the guide. When brands try to be the hero of the story, they subconsciously compete with their buyers. Instead, companies must position themselves as the trusted advisor (the 'Gandalf' or 'Yoda') whose sole purpose is to help the hero win the day. Finally, the duo tackles the rise of generative AI in marketing. While AI is an incredible tool for aggregating insights and analyzing disparate data points, they warn against abdicating high-level strategic messaging to bots. Deciding how your brand is perceived and the exact problem it solves requires human leadership. Leaders must do the hard work of making these strategic decisions before relying on AI as a force multiplier.

Discussed in this episode

How the inability to describe complex tech products clearly inspired the creation of Dakota Strategies.
Why clear messaging and positioning must be established before throwing resources at SEO, ads, or other tactics.
The reality of shrinking attention spans and why buyers have zero tolerance for filler words and complex sentences.
Why clarity cuts through the noise far more effectively than cleverness, humor, or gimmicks.
The narrative framework that positions the customer as the hero of the story and the brand as the trusted guide.
How pitching your differentiators before establishing relevance with the buyer completely ruins the sale.
The common mistake founders make by prioritizing their passion for the product over what top-of-funnel leads actually care about.
Why leaders must use AI to gather data and insights rather than abdicating strategic messaging decisions to ChatGPT.

Episode highlights

0:00 — Introductions and the Dakota Strategies origin story
3:15 — The post-it note rule for defining your problem
5:30 — Why messaging must precede all marketing tactics
7:45 — Cutting through the noise with absolute clarity
10:10 — Positioning your customer as the hero
12:30 — Brand as the guide: the Gandalf approach
14:45 — Why companies fail to articulate the problem they solve
17:15 — The danger of abdicating messaging strategy to AI
20:30 — Using AI as a data aggregator instead of a writer
23:00 — Overcoming founder resistance to brand changes
26:45 — Rapid fire questions with Annie and Kristen

Key takeaways

Position your customer as the hero.
Be the guide, not the hero.
Clarity beats cleverness every single time.
Articulate your exact problem in under 20 words.
Don't abdicate strategic messaging to AI.

Transcript

We want to just beat everyone over the head with that rubber mallet and say you've got to articulate the problem and even if you think you've done that, take another look, because chances are it's not as surgically precise as it needs to be. Welcome back to another episode of the Revenue Remagine podcast. I am so excited. Like more excited than normal.

I'm normally pretty high energy, but we have two incredible ladies here today who arguably need no introduction, but I'm going to give one anyway. And they are so good at what they do and such a valuable part of the R and R arsenal that we're not even going to use last names. We have Annie and Kristen, the co-founders of Dakota Strategies that is our go-to marketing partner here at RNR. And we are going to talk all things branding, messaging, marketing, and why what you've done in the past doesn't matter now and why you need to change it.

Ladies, thank you so much for joining us. Adam, thank you for having us. I want you to come and introduce us every time. Every time.

Every time I pops on, does the introduction, then just mic drops off. No, parent teacher conference, just come with me. Anything, just come, come to everything I go to. Teacher, I would like you to meet Kristen.

She needs no introduction. That's all you need to say. Kristen. That's funny.

That's funny. We get that a lot because of Adam's radio background, but um, we let we let him get a little bit of uh happiness in the beginning. So The only credit Dale gives me. He's like, dude, you are really good at the podcast.

Take it. True. Absolutely. So, it's been incredible working with, with both of you through our journey in messaging and through some of our clients that we've worked with together.

But for the audience, tell them a little bit about how Dakota came together. What was the origin story around it? And when you guys decided what you guys were doing needed to be done for other founders, companies, startups. Well, I can, I can kind of kick us off there.

I think we have Kristen and I had some real parallel experiences early in our career that have let us here. So, um, neither of us came from like a super traditional sales marketing SAS background, um, but we met each other through our husbands who are both artists. We met at a gallery show. We like immediately fell in love with each other and that has created, you know, a very long-term, uh, BFF-dom.

And so then we both started to work together at a software company which was kind of our first foray into that space. And Kristen, I think you do such a good job of explaining like what that was like on, on day one and that I think is such a crucial part of our origin. I love all day one software company stories. So I'm here for this.

So get ready. I'm here for this. Well, and Annie worked at the software company first and after her first day of work emailed me a very lengthy email basically saying, you got to come work here, you have to do this. So I went and and someday we'll tell the story about the hiring process and and what that was like, but showed up on my first day of work, um, and you know, we went through the training.

It was a lengthy product training. And at the end of the training, I remember, well, one, I actually didn't realize it was a sales position. It was because but it was one of those tech companies that has like a weird name. So it was basically three weeks into the job that I found out I was supposed to sell the software.

And, um, at the end of the training asked one of the leaders of the company and said, okay, so, um, how do I describe this? I know how it works, but how do I describe it? And she said, you know what, it means something different for everybody. So just say what it means for you.

And I thought, okay, that so I'm supposed to get on cold calls right now, which scares the stuff out of me. Um, it scares me to do that anyway, and I'm supposed to just come up and invent how we describe this this kind of complex product. And so that like created a spark in me to figure out how the heck do I figure out how to describe this in a clear and concise way. And I became a product trainer there.

And so that then became my job is not just training people to use the product, but thinking, but how do I help people describe this quickly, concisely, so it grabs people's attention, so they don't hang up on us when we call them. So, and then Annie and I were able to share that as we fell in love with this product, but I would say that that company arguably, I don't know that they have ever really solved the the issue of how do I describe this in a clear way. So that that sparked the passion I think for both of us at that time around this. It's it's so funny to hear you say that that they still likely haven't solved how do you describe us in a clear way.

I I legit have a post-it on my computer, um, and I tell this to every seller we train, every founder we talk to. What is the number one problem your product solves for your prospects or customers? P.S.

, like 20 words or less. Not a dissertation. Um, and so many people go, well, we do this and that, and we could solve this, and we could solve this. I'm lost.

I'm done. So I think that's super interesting. I I do want to hear about the hiring process, um, because that's a whole separate conversation. But so many companies get this wrong.

And whether it's early-stage startups, um, or or even, you know, multi-billion dollar companies, you know, we're working with a call it $5 billion company right now that I don't think knows how the hell to describe what they do. So when you look at what y'all are doing at Dakota, talk me through like how do you get people's buy-in that whether they're new, old or, you know, somewhere in the middle, because everyone's, oh, we have messaging. We have branding. How do you get them to be like, yeah, but it ain't very good.

I mean, it's a challenge. The buy-in piece, you nailed it there, Adam, is, you know, most companies think they've done this, right? Or they did it once 10 years ago and then think that that's evergreen. And so usually how we try to get underneath that that question is like, well, there's a reason that you called us, or there's a reason that you're looking to enhance your marketing, right?

So you might say, oh yeah, we got messaging on lock, but you're not getting the leads you need or your leads aren't converting very well, or you're getting traffic, but that's not really like showing up and and turning into pipeline. And so I think we have a very firm belief that before companies start to build any tactics, whether you go to strategy or tactics, and think about SEO or ads, or social, you've got to have your messaging and your positioning first, because if you start to throw resources at all of those different tactics and you don't actually know how to describe what you do and the problem you solve, that's just going to that's going to be wasted. It's leaky bucket. None of that is going to be very effective.

So we really try to kind of contextualize and paint that picture of if if you're not hitting the numbers and hitting the goals that you need from a revenue perspective and back that into pipeline, you know, qualified leads, lead conversion, there's probably something wrong with the way that you're positioning your product. And people's needs, when you look at the consumer base, people's problems and needs change over time. Like there's no scenario where those needs stay the exact same for more than probably a quarter. So this is something that needs to be evolved, um, and I think that that's really scary for a lot of founders who feel like they did it.

Oh, but I did my messaging and I've positioned my product. So I should be good. Don't tell me I need to revisit that. That shit's hard.

I don't want to have to revisit that. But in reality, it needs to be living and breathing. It's not a one and done. And we're the perfect example of that, right?

Like not a lot of people, you know, most people who are listening won't realize this, but our relationship came to be because we engaged your services, because we said, wait a minute, like love our logo, not willing to change our logo, but like our branding and our messaging isn't really resonating. How do we fix that? Um, so I I I think it's so true that people are hesitant to make that change and it's like, oh, I I did this once. I mean, sure.

I did. I mean, I my my kid's in geometry now. Like I learned geometry way back when. I guarantee you it's taught very differently now.

Dale, not a word. You can talk about something else. Yeah, let's uh let's shift into I'm curious what's changed over the last 24 months from like a messaging, strategic conversations, branding world, because sales have changed so quickly, but in your world of branding and messaging how fast has it changed? How do you stay on top of it?

And how do you differentiate trends from like long-lasting change? Mhm. Mhm. Well, I think the first that immediately comes to mind, which is like obvious.

This is not going to be a shock to anybody, but because of so much access to GenAI, there's just so much more content out there. So go back even like three years ago, we were already at an inflection point like as humanity, where we were fielding so much more content on a regular basis than we ever have before. So already it was hard to actually create information content marketing, messaging that stood out and that your consumers would retain. Now, that's like at some massive multiplier because there's so much more out there, which just means we're retaining less and less.

So I think we can't ignore that reality and that fact from just a messaging, you know, positioning content perspective. Um, and we're big believers, Dale, that, you know, of course an really important part of messaging and positioning is determining what are your true differentiators. How are you different or unique? But a way that you can differentiate is to communicate clearly.

And a lot of business leaders and a lot of marketers don't always think down that path. They think, oh, I have to be the cleverest. I have to be the funniest. I have to have a GIF that makes people laugh.

But those might get some attention. It's not actually penetrating the brains of the people that we need to help. So just by focusing on clarity, which is not a new trend, it is one that I think probably has, you know, impacted storytellers for all of time, but is all the more important right now. That's the way that you cut through the noise, not by being clever or goofy or using the terrible GenAI that is just garbage to to blast everybody.

You got to really cut through with clarity. I think there's other two other changes that I'm noticing that kind of build on that. And one is attention spans are only shrinking. And I'm not sure what the tipping point is, because you can only it's I don't know if it's going to keep going down where at some point we only have two words to get people's attention, but attention spans, the more content that people are presented with, the less patience they have for commas in our sentences.

And so if people's attention spans are shrinking and markets are only growing more saturated. So in the startup world, in the tech world, it's becoming more and more saturated. So that means if two years ago, we had to have a pretty sharp and polished message. Today, you have to have a freaking scalpel.

Like you have to be able to cut through the noise so swiftly and so easily like a hot knife through butter. And so I would say now with with the rise of Gen AI, with shrinking attention spans, with more and more crowded markets, you have to be every word has to count. And so that's why you have to be so clear in that message from the very top. Every word, every image, every like everything, right?

Because it's like the Instagram, eight second real world that like if you don't capture attention immediately, I was just and I don't know, laugh at me, but I was just reading Gary Vaynerchuk's new book and like he's saying like if if your cover art or like your, uh, your your headline image, like it doesn't get immediate attention, people are just flipping through phones. Yeah, and I start with the assumption that our prospects owe us nothing. Like our prospects don't owe us their attention. And I think a lot of times people make that mistake and think like, oh, they owe us that and and without actually consciously verbalizing that, and they owe us nothing.

So that means they have no reason to not turn their attention away from us. So we better give them a pretty good reason to to keep their to keep their attention. So you you said you have to have a scalpel and I I agree with you, right? Like the days of spray and pray don't work.

The days of shitty messaging don't work. The day of the days of like sending a a GIF of me bopping Dale over the head with like a hammer don't work. Um, you have to be I mean, if I had one, might have Um, stay tuned. We're launching a video.

Um, true story. Um, but you have you have to be very targeted and very specific. So my question is a little more tactical. Like without doing a branding workshop, how the hell do you cut through the noise?

Because everyone says, oh, we got to cut through the noise, right? We got to speak to our ICP. Our messaging has to be super direct and it's you have to speak to pain and it's got to be three paragraphs. And Christ, I love what you said, like the tolerance for commas is is fucking zero.

No one has that tolerance anymore. Like you got to be super short. But how do you do it? How do you get a founder or a marketing leader or a revenue leader to cut through that noise in a way that makes sense that they don't feel like you are, um, uh, watering down their brand.

So I have some thoughts on this and I actually want to introduce a bit of a contradictory thought here, which is length is not necessarily the enemy. So like, and Adam, I actually think your LinkedIn presence is a perfect example of this, right? Because you aren't writing in like two sentence posts, right? Like you're writing in real narrative.

But there is a reason that you have become such a prolific writer and a go-to expert in this is like the relevance of what you are sharing. You hear that, Dale? Go-to expert. Go-to expert.

One might call Adam my sales co-pilot. Um, but it's true, right? Like you're you're writing in length, but it is all relevant. So I just want to introduce that there that the shortened attention spans, I don't think have to only equate to short, short, short, short, short, short.

It's actually you have to cut out any filler. And so when So is it about the hook? Is it about the start? Like So let's let's get into that then.

Yeah. So the one of the big principles that we have that I think like underscores all of this is the story that you have to tell as a brand is the story of your customer, not your brand. So we put a big emphasis at the very beginning of any messaging and positioning work to say your customer is the hero of your story, not your brand. And most brands get really lost in I got to create a value prop.

I got to create a, you know, positioning statement. I got to It's about me. Me, me, me, me, me. What makes me sound good, what makes me sound cool.

And that's where brands start to come at it from the wrong angle of cool, clever, snappy, eye-catching. But when you do that, that's where you start to get lost in the noise because we are all looking for information that is going to be relevant to us. I don't care how cool your brand sounds. I want to know, I need help with this.

I need help with that. I'm looking for insights into XYZ, right? So first and foremost, that is the angle that you have to take as a brand, which is the customer is the hero. And so everything you're doing is talking about how you can support them.

Now, there is a place for your brand in the story, which is that of being the trusted guide or the trusted advisor, who is there to help your hero be successful. So that is a really critical mindset shift around the way you approach your brand and position. And then, you know, we use a framework that is very tried and true that is based and anchored in the idea of storytelling. Humans love stories.

It's just like a reason that we all go see the movies and we're obsessed with things like Twisters, which by the way, was so good. So good. So good. Um, and so when you think about breaking down stories, there is a very clear formula of what draws human attention in.

So a lot of this is about how are you telling the story and where are you placing certain beats, right? You cannot talk about your differentiators before you have first established relevancy with your audience. I don't care that Coke has, what is it, like 18 magic special ingredients that make up the Coca-Cola, whatever. Are you a Pepsi guy?

Adam, you just No, I'm I'm I'm a Coke guy, but I don't need the whole like I I care that it tastes good. Right. Exactly. Right.

So I don't care that you have a proprietary formula. I care that it's an ice-cold Coke that's going to make me feel good on a hot day. And so there's something that brands can often kind of get out of order around talking about themselves and only themselves and then trying to lead with stuff when it's not the right time. Your differentiators matter, but that's not what you put at the front.

So the ordering of how you talk about problems and pain points and success and outcomes, the ordering really, really matters. That's going to be key. People buy from people. That's why companies who invest in meaningful connections win.

The best part? Gifting doesn't have to be expensive to drive results, just thoughtful. Sendoso's intelligent gifting platform is designed to boost personalized engagement throughout the entire sales process. Trust me, I led sales for a Sendoso competitor and I could tell you no one does gifting better than Sendoso.

If you're looking for a proven way to win and retain more customers, visit Sendoso.com. Yeah, anything additional to So interesting to me, right? Yeah, go ahead.

Sorry. No, well, I mean it's so powerful that shift of how do you make sure you're relevant, which is making sure that your customer's actually the hero of the story, is what I see a lot of times is when brands want to show up as the hero because they think the hero is the strongest character in the movie. What we realize is we're creating a subconscious competition with our customers, because they see themselves as the hero of their story. And then they're like, well, you're a hero, I'm a hero, let's be in separate movies, because I'm looking for a guide to help me win the day.

So that's really what we love is the way that you can help stand out to your customers is showing up as that Gandalf or that Yoda character, because everybody wants a freaking Gandalf in their lives. Like I need a Gandalf to show me how to do this. So it's just a really powerful positioning shift. And the thing that I would add to that to what Annie said is once you really nail that positioning, I would say the thing that cuts through the noise above all else is articulating the problem that you solve, because that is the hook of the story.

That is the thing that makes people super relevant, which is, can you solve the problem, um, that I solve. So, I would say that should And how many people don't do that? Everyone. I was just going to say this.

This I have this feature, this feature, this feature, this benefit, but what the F is the problem you're solving? Bingo. You would be, well, maybe you wouldn't be shocked, but we were shocked when we started to really run like large SEO workshops or kind of larger strategy sessions and if we ask, hey, have you articulated the problem you solve? Everyone says, yep, yep.

How do you grade yourself? I'm an A. I know. And we say, okay, great.

So what's what is the problem that you solve? And either it's we sell blank. It's like, okay, that's not the problem, that's what you sell, right? It's your solution.

So what's the problem? Oh, the problem is our customers need blank. Nope. That's not the problem you solve.

So, I just, it could not be more on the same page. And Kristen and I talk about this all the time that like, we want to just beat everyone over the head with that rubber mallet and say you've got to articulate the problem. And even if you think you've done that, take another look, because chances are it's not as surgically precise as it needs to be. Well, and most people make a huge mistake assuming it's impossible.

We solve so many problems. There's not just one problem we solve. So then they remove themselves from the conversation and leave it up to their customers to figure it out. Like that is just putting putting the wrong ball in the wrong court at that point.

So I think the thing that I would want to say is there is a core problem that you solve, it shows up in the form of a lot of pain points, but but people really disqualify themselves from doing this way too often when it is very solvable. You can do it. You can articulate it. And if that value is articulated properly, like your sales cycles won't extend.

Like there's there's a lot of downstream implications to the initial message or brand strategy that you're running that people don't realize is completely tied to the sales process that could totally screw everything up. So it's super interesting. We you were talking a little bit about AI, but I want to dive in a little bit more on the AI side. So you guys do a ton of branding exercises, you go through a bunch of messaging.

Like we've experienced it, it's a amazing experience. How as we evolve with AI, will you guys from Dakota Strategies inject AI into that process for your clients and customers because it's inevitable that's going to happen. Um, so tell the audience a little bit about how you guys are getting in front of that. Well, Kristen, I'm going to use your term because I just love this so much that I think from the moment that Gen AI like blew up 18 months ago or whatever, we've really been thinking about, okay, that this is a tool, obviously a tool that can help to scale our efforts, but it's a force multiplier.

So if you have crappy messaging, it's going to force multiply crappy messaging, right? If you have good messaging, opposite side of that. So we're really thinking about like, where, where are there required human inputs and human decisions that you need to retain and where can you then use some of these scaling efforts. So, there was an experience that we had some number of months ago in a in a messaging workshop where we were talking about the value proposition.

And we have a very specific way that we enter into value props because it can mean so many things to different companies that we really want to refine what that is. But this is hard to say, take your entire company and product and let's think about how to distill this into a handful of bullet points of the value you deliver. And so the the the founder was really kind of struggling with this. It was really difficult.

And we saw this like light bulb moment switch where he went from really facing the challenge of trying to distill and communicate this to saying, you know what, I'm just going to ask chat GPT. And he popped it into chat GPT and just in that moment, we saw him go from, I'm going to lean in and I am going to take real leadership in determining this for my business to, I'm going to abdicate this to a tool that can do it for me. And there was something so critical about that moment for us where we realized, we need to be really clear and we need to be guides around, look, there are there are elements of your marketing that require human decision. Because unfortunately, with marketing and I think probably with sales, there's no right and wrong.

There's no black and white. There's no, oh, you've got it or oh, you're, you know, it's all very subjective. And so where do we need to make sure that we are really harnessing that expertise? And then once you've got your messaging and positioning, holy cow, go forth and conquer with a force multiplier of Gen AI, right?

But the the upfront decisions about how you want to be known and perceived in the market, the problem you want to be known for solving, that's the stuff that you just cannot abdicate. And unfortunately, we've started to see some of that, but I just say, these are hard things that require, I have my do hard things up here from my A16Z days. Like you got to lean in and you have to face those hard decisions before you can scale and like benefit from this new tool. I really see AI being a fantastic tool for helping companies gather insights and data to inform those key decisions.

And so rather, I mean not starting with, okay, let me just type into GBT, but what is the problem I solve, but really thinking, okay, so the tech company that Annie and I worked at, where there were 160 employees, 160 different descriptions of what we did. If I could go back in time and conduct an audit of how is everybody answering this question and then talk with the leaders and say, these are the perspectives that we're seeing in the company. Here's the differences that we're seeing. This is why this is a big problem for you.

Let's take these insights and let them inform the way we are going to make critical human decisions here. So I really like it for uh gathering and leveraging insights and data. And at some point, maybe generating content. I'm going to see it.

I'm I need to see it get a lot better first because I see a lot of shitty robot content out there. So I'm not here to say that it's never going to get better. And I know there's a lot of tools that are really good, but for right now, I want to be using it for data and insights and then we'll see in the future how we can leverage it. Well, what would have been interesting is taking 160 like what people said 160 of them, putting it in a spreadsheet, dropping it into chat GPT and seeing of all this stuff, give me a 20 word, you know, value proposition on what you've heard.

Yeah. Well, that's interesting. Like that's like really given what is everybody's perspective. But the thing that I really want to hold is that moment that Annie talks about.

I remember it. And I remember seeing the look in his eyes when basically he removed himself and removed his leadership from the process and then abdicated it over to chat GPT. And that is what I do not want. I want leaders to hold the decisions that are theirs to make, but let that be informed by data instead of, you know, um, being led by typing it into a tool.

Yeah. You mean the chat GPT content that starts every email with, hi, Dale, I hope this email finds you well. Um, you you would think someone has like prompted chat GPT at like the broader level to never start anything with hope you're doing well. One would hope.

One would hope, but it it doesn't. I got an email today that was like, hi, I hope you're doing well. Oh, Adam, we have to show you the emails we got this week. We we got some we got some good ones this week that were along those lines.

so many of them and it's whether it be an email or whether it be branding or whether it be messaging like listen, I love AI. We we use a good amount, excuse me, of AI. Um, but on a more strategic approach to help guide decisions to, you know, help eliminate some manual tasks that are repetitive over and over again. I don't think I've ever used AI to like write me a cold email or like Dale and I were talking yesterday.

We had a client, um, offsite yesterday. And like I certainly used AI to help like summarize the thoughts, but then I took everything it gave me and I manually did my recap. If I would have asked AI to build the recap like it would have been, hi, I hope this this recap finds you well. Um, here is the executive summary.

Like you just can't do stuff like that. Um, and even some of the best tools, um, I still think struggle with that. Like one of the tools that we were using start like helps with like subject lines, for example, for a client. And it started with the response was subject line.

And their whole premise is you just put it into like, can you imagine getting a subject line with something that's subject line? Annie, hello, like it's just blows my mind. Wow. When you guys are working with companies, I'm curious.

Who who's harder to work with and get to have that fundamental mind shift? Is it the sales side of the house or the marketing side of the house? Oh, I thought you were going to say, is it Annie or Kristen? Who's harder to work with, right here, they're they're both wonderful.

That's an interesting question, Adam, because honestly, once, once we present our approach and these ideas that we've talked about here a little bit, like your customer's the hero, not not the brand. And clarity and simplicity are going to be in your favor. And there is a time and a way to unravel your story to appeal to people. I have not found a whole lot of resistance to that mindset shift and that approach.

I think where it gets challenging and difficult is when there are founders, marketing folk, sales folk, whomever it is across this stack who feel so connected to the company. They've built this with blood, sweat, and tears. They know the magnitude of what this product or what this company can do. And they have a really hard time saying and facing, you may know that is like huge and massive and incredible and life-changing.

But you know what, your top of funnel leads, they don't give a shit about that. They actually do not care about all of those things. They care about, I have this annoyance in my day and I need something to solve it. So that's where I think there's, and not even so much resistance, it's just that is a real challenge to guide a founder or to guide someone who thinks so highly of this incredible brand they've created.

And like that is a huge gap between where your leads and their mindset is and what you want to communicate. So, I don't know if you can think of any other places around that resistance, but that is definitely one that is hard to get a founder especially to understand everything they care about's actually not exactly what your net new audience is going to care about. Yeah, I don't think we could bucket it like, oh, it's tougher in marketing, it's tougher in sales because it's really personality driven. I would say the key indicators in not key indicators, but what there's an attitude of walking into it and there are some people that are yes and people of like, yes, we've been doing it this way and we're ready to embrace a new way of looking at this.

There's also yes, but people. Um and I and and it's like, yeah, that works, but here's why this doesn't work. And and it's it's a really tricky attitude to overcome because it's just a resistance to uh trying a new way of positioning yourself and pointing at all the reasons this doesn't work before you even try something new. So that's usually what I'm looking for is are people showing up with like a yes and or a yes but um perspective and that's going to that's going to give us a lot of information.

Yeah, that's super interesting. Yeah, and yeah. Branding's hard. Messaging's hard.

Adam's the butt of, yeah, but. Thanks, Dale. Thank you. I don't know what to say what to say to him right now.

Um, it's, man, he knows how to push my buttons and I I have like a two and a half hour call with him later today. We we we talk about this before the before this call, so we're all, we're all going to get 12 second words. Um, the the funny thing is, like, what you see, like, we are the same way in front of clients, like, and and in in full disclosure, like, they eat it up and I think it's because we're real, right? Like we're we're very different personalities and we play off one another very well.

But like it it's it's real. And sometimes Dale lets me speak. Most of the times he doesn't. Um, which is why on the podcast, I try to talk more.

Um, but we have fun together. Um, I am a yes and guy and I think and you all know, right? Like I we we've had I don't want to call it tragedy, but we we've had we've had some shit happen recently that's given me like a different perspective on things and much more of like, yes, and much more of like, if it's not going to matter in five weeks, five days, five months, I really don't give a shit about it. Like whatever.

Um, it's just a different way of looking at things. Like I'm pretty high strung by nature. Like Dale's going to not his head, like, yeah, the fuck you are. Um, so I'm trying to scale back a little.

But I will say, like, changing your brand and changing your messaging, um, recognizing when to do that. Like that's hard. And we work with a lot of early stage startups and that product that company. That's that founder's baby.

And I know you guys see it too, right? And it's very hard to call someone's baby ugly. And you're not, but when you when you tell someone like, hey, like your messaging might be a little bit off. It's like, what what what do you mean my baby has fucked up feet?

Like that's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying you need to make a change. So I can't recommend y'all enough. Um, we've gone through it.

Our clients have gone through it. Um, if you're looking and this isn't like a promotional show, but in in true disclosure, if you're looking for branding and messaging, whether it's to go through an entire workshop or just to shoot the shit and get ideas. Um, Dakota is who you want to talk to. With that said, I would love to get into some rapid fire and learn a little bit more about Annie and Kristen that we don't know, because we have not met in person yet.

We're working to change this. We got to do it. We got to do it. But let's let let's do some rapid fire.

10 words or less, otherwise there's a gong that comes around and bops Dale on the head. Um, one of you could go first. One of you could go second. Most used emoji in your work chat.

The heart and the two girls dancing. Yes. Same answer. All right.

I like it. Uh, first app you check when you wake up. Oh, Instagram for me. LinkedIn.

I don't do Instagram. No Instagram. And Krist, how am I not following you on IG? We we got to talk.

Oh, it's it's not that interesting. But come on over. Come on over. My my my mine's all food my kid, my dog.

Um, that's not that's about it. Let's do this. Early bird or night owl? Early bird.

Early bird. Yeah, you guys, you guys have no problem scheduling 7:00 AM meetings. I love it. Yeah.

Uh, if you weren't in tech, what other industry would you be in? Like if you weren't if you weren't in marketing and doing tech work, like a trade, like what would you guys be in? Lawyer. What I got to law school?

Lawyer. Yeah. Ther I would have been I would have been a therapist. Yeah.

What's your one guilty pleasure snack? Cheetos. Ooh. I would never expect Cheetos.

Regular. Regular. Definitely regular crunchy. I was going to say crunchy or the nasty puffy things.

Oh, nasty puffy things. That's me. Cheeto Puffs. I can't.

If I open the bag, it's gone. So Cheeto Puffs at the beach is my favorite life. Yeah. All right.

Hey, last one. Let's wrap this up. Dream vacation destination. New Zealand.

Hobbiton, the Shire. Ireland. Nice. I want to go back.

What part of Ireland? I'm I'm thinking we do an Ireland offsite. Uh, I only really spent time in Dublin. So I want to see everything.

I want to see everything. I worked for an Irish company for several years. So I got some time in Dublin and I just want to see everything. Very cool.

All right, y'all, shameless plug time. I mean, we've plugged you a bit. But where uh, where can our folks find you? Where could they learn more about Dakota and engage with all of your amazing services, besides revenueimagin.

com/partners. Yes, definitely there as a starting point. Um, come to our website. We've got a lot of content on the website both about what we do and also best practices around getting started on a new path with branding and messaging.

Um, so Dakotastrategies.com. Kristen and I also post a ton on LinkedIn. So please, you know, follow us on LinkedIn, reach out on LinkedIn.

Uh, we also send out a weekly marketing emails with a lot of tips and recommendations about bite-sized things that people can do on the daily. So, on our website, you can sign up, reach out to us on LinkedIn, and we would be glad to uh, to chat and help everybody out with their messaging. Ladies, thank you so much for coming and hanging out with us. Thank you for putting up with Dale.

Um, it is always always a pleasure, um, to chat with y'all. We love you guys. Thank you so much for having us. This is awesome.