Win The Trust First, Not The Right To Spam | Leslie Venetz

Leslie Venetz highlights that modern outbound isn't fundamentally broken—it is plagued by lazy, selfish outreach that prioritizes the seller's convenience over the buyer's needs. Instead of leaning on quick AI tricks to spam at scale, teams must adopt the 'Earn the Right' framework, ensuring they have actually delivered value and demonstrated relevance before asking for a prospect's time. Relying on fake personalization, such as quoting a random LinkedIn post, only deepens buyer distrust. One of the biggest pitfalls in current outbound is stopping at product features or generic advantages, like 'saving time' or 'reducing risk,' rather than moving into true benefits. Venetz advocates for a highly specific approach to defining your Ideal Customer Profile (ICP), recommending at least five deep CRM filters to create hyper-relevant messaging instead of blasting broad audiences. Buyers only care about their own problems, not your product's capabilities. Ultimately, success in outbound requires a shift from seller-centric comfort zones to buyer-centric psychology. From embracing a multi-channel approach to utilizing a 'Coach versus Tell' framework for onboarding reps, leaders must root their strategy in behavioral science. By systematically earning the right at every touchpoint, sales professionals can rebuild trust and generate highly profitable pipeline.

Discussed in this episode

• Why 80% of sales emails fail by stopping at features instead of connecting to buyer-centric benefits.
• How AI is currently being misused to accelerate lazy outreach rather than executing deep buyer research.
• The definition of the 'Earn the Right' framework and why asking for 15 minutes without providing value is a massive mistake.
• The difference between fake personalization and genuine relevance based on specific business problems.
• The 'Coach versus Tell' framework for onboarding reps, starting with strict templates before allowing creative freedom.
• Why sales professionals must operate on a minimum of three channels to respect the buyer's channel of choice.
• The danger of confusing a broad marketing audience with a deeply filtered, actionable Ideal Customer Profile.
• Why 'The Challenger Customer' is vastly superior to 'The Challenger Sale' for understanding buyer motivation.

Episode highlights

1. 0:00 — Earning the right and the FABs framework
2. 1:45 — Why modern outbound is lazy and self-centered
3. 3:30 — How AI is misused to replace real strategy
4. 5:00 — The trap of fake personalization in outreach
5. 7:15 — Features, Advantages, and Benefits breakdown
6. 9:45 — Why sales has a training problem, not a strategy problem
7. 12:30 — Being authentic and human in your sales process
8. 14:20 — The Coach versus Tell framework for scaling teams
9. 17:10 — Multi-channel approach and leaving comfort zones
10. 19:50 — How to properly define your ICP with five filters
11. 23:15 — Letting go of the belief that buyer time is more valuable

Key takeaways

• Stop stopping at features; push messaging to buyer-centric benefits.
• Fake personalization destroys trust before you even begin selling.
• Earn the right to a buyer's attention before asking for time.
• Add at least five specific filters to CRM to find true ICP.
• Operate on at least three channels to meet buyer preferences.

Transcript

But, when it comes to how to actually earn the rate. Like if we think about it in sales copy, one of the frameworks that I teach. It's like an oldie but a goodie called FABs, features, advantages and benefits. Just because you're most comfortable with something doesn't mean it's the right place.

Um doesn't mean that it's working. Being honest with yourself that you do not know who your ICP is because saying that you sell to like all finance and IT executives for any company over 100 million in these seven industries, that's bullshit. Welcome back to another episode of the Bridge the Gap podcast powered by Revenue Reimagined where I apparently am going to pay for all of my misdeeds on this episode. Today, we have Leslie Vanitz with us, the founder of the sales led go-to-market agency, best-selling author author of Profit Generating Pipeline.

Dale, do you have one of these? Are you special enough? Keynote speaker and one of the most recognized voices in outbound sales today. She's been named sales innovator of the year, featured as one of the 100 most powerful women's of sales, and her Earn the Right framework is shaping how teams train, coach, and engage buyers.

We're going to talk about rewriting the outbound playbook, how to earn buyer attention, how to train teams for long-term success, and how to build trust in a noisy market. Leslie, a long-time friend of the show, and a long-time friend outside of the show. Thanks for joining us. After all of Dale's technical difficulties.

I mean, jeez, making me work for it, Jen. No, I'm so happy. Oh shit. Uh, to be back.

I just I I love collaborating with both of you. So, I know we will drop some knowledge, but we will also probably do some like light bullying and then some laughter. Oh, it'll be very heavy. I don't know if the bullying will be light, but there will be some bullying.

Leslie, thanks for joining. Congratulations on the book. Amazing job. Um, so outbound isn't broken.

Adam just says it's misused. So, you've built your brand around outbound. Where do most people still get wrong about doing it? Ooh, the list is is so long.

Like, the the bar is kind of in hell right now for good outbound. Um, oh my god, like where do I even start? So, a couple a couple of things. One, I think that a lot of outbound is extraordinarily lazy and it's selfish.

And so it's here's my name, here's what my company does, here's my product and my features. And it is so selfish and so self-centered. That if I was going to say like across all outbound I've ever seen, if there was one universal truth, it's that we are a very self-centered profession and that is something that like most teams and all industries at all levels of maturity tend to get wrong. And unfortunately, and I'd love to hear what what you are seeing as well.

Unfortunately, AI has this amazing potential for us to like build really tight lists and do faster research and more easily make our outreach very buyer-centric. And instead, what I'm seeing 99% of the time are that companies are using it to try to like replace having strategy or they're just chasing like the the shiny object silver bullet of AI to move faster, but they are moving fast in the wrong direction and just entrenching or validating this like buyer hatred of sales as a profession. M. It's to me, you hit on it with lazy, right?

I think that we are seeing a culture even before, like certainly drives a lot of this, but I I truly blame and we won't name them the sales engagement platforms that we all know. Um, you know, that have made it so easy to email a thousand people at a time with really shitty messaging that is some version of, you know, "Hi Leslie, because you're the CEO of X, you must suffer from Y and I'm Adam from Z and I can help solve your problem." Um, and it sucks and that is probably 90% of the messaging that we're seeing. One of the things I tell sellers a lot is you have to earn the right to even say your company name, right?

Like you have to earn the right to say, "I'm from Revenue Reimagined or I'm from Attention or Gong or whoever it happens to be." But what what is earn the right mean in practice? Like how do you really earn the right? Yeah, uh well, I mean it's trust.

I think like it's it's based in how am I building trust, but it's also respect, Adam. Like, respecting the buyer's attention and their time and their consideration. And so I use it as a a bit of a litmus test. Like before I show up to a discovery call, what have I done to to prepare for this meeting to earn the right to 45 minutes of this prospect's time before I start, you know, before I I hit launch on a sequence, what have I done?

What have I said in this email copy to earn the right to even ask for this prospect's attention? And if I have not prepared in a way that adds value to them, then like I I simply have not earned the right. I'm not building trust. I'm usually, you know, eroding trust if I have not passed that very basic litmus test.

But how do how do people do that, right? Like I think that's the thing is there's this CTA that everyone uses that I despise which is something to the effect of, "Leslie, would it make sense to hop on a 15-minute call?" Um, and I will tell people all the time and forgive my language, you haven't fucking earned the right to ask me for 15 minutes of my time. Much less 30, much less 45.

I think people feel that they can use AI to do research and arguably good research, right? Like if you know how to use it, you can get some really good research. But does knowing that I spoke on a podcast this week about the proper way to do outbound, earn the right for you to ask for 15 minutes of my time or do you have to have to go deeper? What does that look like?

Yeah, you have to go deeper. Um, two two thoughts came up. One is that's not personalization. Like saying that, "I saw that you're the founder at X company.

Congrats on your series A. I saw that you spoke at a podcast." I. Literally not that's not personalization.

When you have pulled a random fact and now you're just like reading a CV back to somebody or like reading the news back to somebody, that does not count. And it's always a totally irrelevant fact and then the very next sentence is, "So anyways, about me and my widget that I'm trying to explain here." Yeah. So like first and foremost, let's be straight, that's not personalization.

That's shit. It's disingenuous. I think it's disrespectful. That's the opposite of earning the rate because you're actually wasting people's time or maybe going so far as like trying to manipulate and trick them by saying things like, "Oh, I really respect what you're doing in the sales space."

So, you know, like, hate it. Uh, don't do that. But, when it comes to how to actually earn the rate, because if we think about it in sales copy, one of the frameworks that I teach, it's like an oldie but a goodie called FABs, features, advantages and benefits. And so, you know, and I I audit like like you guys probably, you know, a 1000 plus emails a year and I see about 80% of those emails stopping at features.

They're just saying what a company is and what a product is. Maybe another 10% go to advantages, but they're always the same advantages, right? I save you time, I save you money, I make you money, I reduce risk. It's because they're a robot.

It's because they 100% There it's so generic. The prospect is not able to see themselves in those advantages because they don't know how they relate to their needs, their jobs to be done. It's also the same thing that all of your competitors are saying, and not just your competitors, like every other person sending an email and buying that person's attention. So they're Say it again.

Just like any other tech, any other company, any other. Dale's trying to be here. Dale's internet's. I'm so trying to be here.

Um, but I love this because I'm never going to let it live down. What he said is just like any other tech or any other company who's trying to be here. And we appreciate your contribution, Dale. Thank you.

But the real trick is to not stop at features and not even to stop at advantages, but go all the way to be benefits, which is this opportunity to then tell the prospect why it matters to them. And so it earns the right and it builds trust by showing that you understand the problems and the opportunities that are most important to them. It earns the right and it earns that trust and respect by showing that you have a point of view about what's going on in their world, and then when you write benefits focused messaging instead of talking about your product, you talk about the solutions that are most important to them. So completely shifts the messaging from being very product centric, which is like 90% of what I see.

That's why I say the bar is in hell to being problem centric, which makes it relevant to the person reading it. Yeah, I I too many people, you you hit the nail on the head. It's product, product, product. I could do this, I could solve this.

My product does that and it's always the same generic ROI claim. Um and it is in my opinion, ruining outbound, um for everyone. So, you talk a lot about training versus tactics. Um, and you say that and quote, "Most companies don't have a strategy problem, they have a training problem."

Tell me what you mean by that. Because a lot of people are going to say, "Well, no, your problem is your outbound strategy sucks." Right? That's the way you're looking at your outbound strategy.

Is that a quote from the book? It it may or may not be a a quote. Wait, hold on. We all we all it it may or may not be a quote from the book.

Um It sounds like something I would say in the book. If certainly not the book, it sounds like a rant that I have like repeatedly banged the drum on. We don't make up quotes here. You did really say it.

I I I don't have the source at the moment, but I can promise you said it. Chat GPT for sure said that I I said it. There you go. Exactly.

Exactly. Um, okay, but here's the basis of my argument is that like most of these like gurus out there, but even a lot of like people in sales leadership are teaching like tricks and tactics. And that's that's how you get into like stuff like, "Hey, I know this is a cold call, but do you want to roll the dice and see why I called?" I would hang up on anyone who ever said that to be very clear or may I have 12 seconds of your time.

You just took 12 seconds asking if you could have 12 seconds. And like if you if you think about it in the context of earn the right, earn the right by saying something relevant. Don't earn the right by saying something that like no normal human would ever put together as a string of words ever. And it's how you fall into traps like quick question.

And I love the example of quick question because quick question is not a bad subject line at face value. It is a bad subject line because everybody started using it and then it became something that was easily identifiable as like a sales mental spam trigger. And so when you when you chase those types of like tricks or tactics instead of rooting in like buyer psychology and behavioral science and letting that inform your training for sure and then later your strategy, you're doing sales as a profession, but certainly like yourself and your team and injustice. So like that's a starting line.

People buy from people. That's why companies who invest in meaningful connections win. The best part? Gifting doesn't have to be expensive to drive results.

Just thoughtful. Sendoso's intelligent gifting platform is designed to boost personalized engagement throughout the entire sales process. Trust me, I led sales for a Sendoso competitor and I can tell you, no one does gifting better than Sendoso. If you're looking for a proven way to win and retain more customers, visit sendoso.

com. Dale comments? Awesome. Yes.

No, I was I'm going to ask a question, but it may be a little delayed. Oh my God. But I will ask my question so you can get a response. Um, you're vocal about sales needing to be more human.

What does that really look like today? Like what when you say more human in a sales outreach process, what does that mean to you? Oh, I love that question. Um, two things for me personally, it means like a little bit more unhinged.

Tell me more. And and let me bench that in the fact that like, I am a solopreneur by choice. I only want to attract clients that want to work with me specifically as a human. Um, and I am very funny.

Um, but I'm like a little bit quirky and a little bit unhinged. So for me, my messaging needs to reflect my personality. That is not the same advice that I would give an organization I was building sales copy for. But like a perfect example is I, you know, I I have that other company, um, Revenue Revelry that I host the events for.

And I will often use it to test ideas that I want to test with clients. And so for the April event, um, we sent out a bunch of emails that were inspired by Tik Tok trends. You love your Tik Tok. I love Tik Tok.

Writing the emails brought me so much joy. The subject lines brought me so much joy. Everything about it was amazing. Um, they were very hit and miss with the recipients.

People were either like, "This is unprofessional and I'd never go to your event. You're the worst." And I'm like, "Do you, man?" Or people were like, "This is the best thing I've ever seen ever."

So like for for me because I have much different goals than my clients because my clients are, you know, starting at 30 million plus, um, for me it's like being human means just like a bit more unhinged, a bit more authentic. Um, for my clients, the advice that I would give is actually doing some blending of what might historically be considered demand gen with lead gen so that your reps have more of an opportunity to like to nurture, to send deposits, things that might just usually be like a lead magnet or a newsletter, that your reps are going to events not to sit in a booth and be like, "Hello, I am salesperson. Did you want a free mouse pad because I'm going to make you talk to me first?" But instead go with like a strategic plan to talk to like their 10 hottest prospects in person.

Not to sell them, not to force them into a demo, but to have a face-to-face conversation with them. I can write a cold call script, a cold email, whatever it is. But like, the fact of the matter is, I write different, I sound different, I act different than Dale. And if Dale takes my exact copy and puts it in an email and sends it to someone and they respond and then they get on the phone with Dale, they're going to know damn sure that Dale did not write that email.

Um, I am much more laid back and relaxed and T-shirt and Dale is buttoned up with his jacket and, "Dear Mr. J." Um, you know, we we just we talk differently. Um, how do you balance that with the need to scale but also, um, the need to personalize and like you said, like be yourself.

Here, okay, so here's a framework that I use as a sales leader and it's like coach versus tell, but I think it applies to um like to to your question because when I am onboarding a new employee or I'm asking them to sell a new product or we're penetrating a new market, whatever it is, I am in tell mode. Like crystal clear expectations, they are working from templates that are like the best practice template with like no wiggle room. They are they are reading scripts. At the beginning, I have them started on what I know works the greatest number of times because it is what our buyers are most receptive to.

And then once they get a comfort level with like what works and why it works and they get some familiarity and some confidence, then I switch to coach, which is also when I'm like, "I do not want you to use this script. It was there to empower you and to inform you and now you need to make it your own." Now you know that it works and you know why it works and how buyers respond to it. Now make it your own.

Um, and then like the the coach is very much like, "Hey, let's talk through this. Why is it working? Why is it not working? What do you want to test?

Why do you think that would work?" Um, and so when like when I think about scaling, I like I this is going to sound really rude, but like I just don't give that many fucks about you the SDR's personality as a buyer who is never, ever, ever met you before, getting an email that I didn't ask for. And that doesn't mean that I want to have a robot reaching out to me. It doesn't mean that as a sales leader I want a bunch of robots working for me.

But I like I think this narrative is a bit pressed that like there needs to be just this tremendous amount of personality in every single email that goes out because again, it is not about you the seller, it is about the buyer. And like I don't know, I just think we get too tied up and like figuring out how to make ourselves feel good and not thinking about how our message can be most easily received and digested by the buyer. But also, like if you want to infuse your personality in your outreach then pick up the phone. That should happen on a cold call, not in a sales email.

I'm going to get in trouble for that one. No, I I I don't think you are. Um, I I'm going to pause and give Dale the 30-second buffer he needs to share his thoughts. Uh, no, uh, I totally agree.

I'm I'm aligned and I love the no fucks given statement. Like, to me, that that is the best part of the whole thing because it is about having the like interaction versus just the action. Like, people are just feature functionality dumping, having conversations, pushing things around versus I just had this conversation with a client. Okay, you're sending a message that sounds like everybody else.

What is it that you are truly driving value for that individual or that company that you can have a like narrow the focus. Like, people are like, build more, send more, do more. And I'm like, "No, let's narrow it down, especially for startup companies or companies that are not at scale." Niche down, niche down and be specific.

Like, why do they want your product above all others? So, I I love I love that, that you have to connect it and it has to be on the phone. Um, I think that makes tons of sense. You you mean cold calling is not dead, Leslie?

So that. Um, wait, but I think there's something that's adjacent to this that would also be good to to talk about, and it's taking a multi-channel approach. Because I will often hear reps or even their sales leaders push back that they're like, "Oh, my team's just more comfortable on LinkedIn." And I'm like, that's cool.

If they are if they are more comfortable and also that means that they are getting significantly better results on LinkedIn, then we can build LinkedIn heavy sequences that that we, you know, we predominantly push them to. Usually it's like they're more comfortable but that doesn't even mean they're getting better results. So I'm like, "I don't really care." Right.

But it's another It's it's easy. I I like it. It's another example of just this like very selfish way of approaching sales because it is not about where I am most comfortable. It's about making sure that you are taking a multi-channel approach for my clients.

We do three channels minimum or bust. And that like I call it in the book, I call it channel of choice. Because you are giving your prospects an opportunity to engage with you on the channel where they are most comfortable having commercial conversations. And I just like that whole mindset pivot about stopping just the incessant centering of ourselves in our processes.

Yeah, I I I think you are 100% correct. Number one, just because you're most comfortable with something doesn't mean it's the right place. Um, doesn't mean that it's working. Um, and personally, I could tell you anywhere where I truly had success in life, started with where I wasn't fucking comfortable.

Um, like let's just be real. Um, so you you have to be which is everywhere. Um, you have to be willing to step side out of the comfort zone. Ah.

Um, so I I I agree with you 100%. I think Adam's comforting. There's so much My box is bigger than that. Is is Dale here?

Who's who's talking? Who was that? Who? I I I I don't know.

Allow allow me to drive allow me to drive the show here, Dale. This is going to be a fun one to edit. Um, and this this ties into what we've been speaking about. But like, Leslie, you're you're super vocal about sales needing to be more human, right?

Um, you have to build trust faster. You have to have storytelling versus scripts. But realistically, like, how does a org who doesn't know their head from their ass when it comes to outbound, how do they implement this today? So other than being 30 million plus and hiring Leslie, you know, how can an org look at after this episode be like, "Shit, I need to change my outbound approach and this is what I'm going to do right now to do that."

I have this answer. It's buy the book. No, I'm just kidding. Buy the book.

Um, And leave a five-star review. Uh, before yeah, and then leave a five-star review on all channels. Uh, before I answer that question, I I have to first ask you, um, have you seen all of the new data coming out about learning styles? And like for anybody that is watching this, um, I'm sure that you are familiar with like the concept of learning styles where we, you know, we learn better by hearing or by doing, et cetera.

And so the the thinking for many, many years was that we should shift the way we teach to teach towards a specific person's learning style. And now there is a whole new decade of like deep studied, deep peer reviewed, like huge, huge, uh, like, you know, set sets of the population, um, that say that that is actually not how you learn best, that's how you learn worst. Because if you are learning within your preferred easy learning style, you are not working hard to learn, so you're significantly less likely to retain the information. And that Interesting.

is why everything I do is benched in like behavioral psychology and buyer psychology because I want to I don't want to like go off my gut and I don't want to go off like tips and tricks. I want to go off the ways that like the brain actually responds to stuff. So anyways, that's my nerdy that's my nerdy tangent. I I like the dating.

But the answer to your question, how do people actually like do this? How do they get started? Okay, so when I'm working with clients, I take them through a nine-step process. But step one is where they need to start.

And it is it is easier than folks think it is, but it does take a minute of like stepping back. You got to you got to slow down to speed up type of of energy. And that is being honest with yourself that you do not know who your ICP is. Because saying that you sell to like all finance and IT executives, Everyone, everyone.

for any company over 100 million in these seven industries, that's bullshit. That is a a marketing definition of like your sales addressable market. Not a really really sales obtainable market. So the the first challenge that I would issue for folks to get started is to be honest with yourself that you don't actually know what your ICP is.

And that part of the issue is because in sales, we do not have ICP. We have many different ideal customer segments, and they are ideal for unique reasons, and the reasons are their reasons that they want to buy and solve a problem, not our reasons that we want to sell to them. So step one is figure out who your best ICP segments are. And the easiest way to do that is to start by building at least five filters in to your territory.

So like go to your CRM and start with five filters because now you're not speaking to like, um, you know, uh like let's say you're not speaking to finance executives in CPG. You are only trying to figure out how to say something relevant to CFOs of companies, not even in CPG, not even in F and B, but in like the pet food sector who have a headquarters in the US, who have over 1,000 employees, who have revenue between 3 and 6 billion and who are being impacted by like a new packaging regulation from the FDA. Right? And that's maybe going to only be 57 people that fit all of those filters.

But for those 57 people, you can send the same messaging out. You don't have to worry about like asking them about their vacation in Cabo in 2017 and how it was to swim with dolphins. You can say something relevant to them, and it it opens up some access to personalization without with with scale without going to spam. So that's where I would advise people start.

There is the tip of the day. Like there's your tactical advice to get started. With that, we are up against not only Dale's shitty internet, um but we are up against time as Dale drops off. We will finish what the show is.

He's texting me that his computer died. What's the sales belief that you've let go of? Jesus, Adam. Yeah, we're doing the hard ones here.

I think a sales belief that I let go of a long time ago, but it's still like deeply informs the way I show up is that my time because I'm a sales professional and like the, you know, the society told me I should be ashamed of my profession, that my time is less valuable or less important than the people's time that I'm asking for. I love that. I think that's something that a lot of sales people struggle with. It's why I actually I I coach people not to start with, "Leslie, thank you so much for joining this meeting."

My time's just as valuable. Leslie, it's great to get to spend some time with you. Like, I'll just be real quick. Yep.

Love it. Uh, the number one outbound tactic you are tired of seeing. Um, man, that list is so long. I really I I think that it is in the realm of like disingenuous personalization, but more specifically the type that's like, um, you know, "I saw your LinkedIn post.

It was so meaningful to me. I love the work you're doing." Where they like they show up and it's it's so so manipulative and they pretend like they actually like want help or are actually interested. And it's it's all just a tactic to trick somebody into meeting with you.

Like, it it hurts my heart to see sales people still try to manipulate their buyers into meeting with them as the first interaction. All the time. I I I think I might have told you this story. I don't know, but like I had a someone, it doesn't matter who, but after our car crash last year, three or four messages of like, you know, I'm so sorry, I hope Zachary's okay, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Then came the sales pitch and I found like it it it turned me off so bad. Like I would rather you just give me the sales pitch and say, "By the way, saw you were in an accident and hope everyone's okay." Like don't start with all the bullshit and then go to the sales pitch because you don't care. Okay, but literally, I would respond better to like, "Hey, sorry you almost died.

Anyways, would you be interested?" Then like "I really care about you." Kidding. I'm good with it.

Um, other than your own, what is a book, podcast, or resource you recommend to reps right now? Ooh, uh, Challenger Customer is my favorite, favorite, favorite sales book, which is interesting because it wasn't like a like especially written for sales professionals. Yeah. Um, it is so much better than Challenger Sale.

Yeah. It's so much better. Uh, because it asks questions. It was one of the first books that I ever read that really asked questions like, "Hey, why would a buyer give a shit about this?"

Yeah. With you 100%. Hardest lesson you've learned from building your brand. Um, oh gosh.

I honestly think it was to to trust myself. Like, and it it's came up in like yeah, like so many iterations because I remember I was just actually talking to Chris, to my husband about this, um, that I remember being just like plagued with doubt to the point that like it it drove me to tears a couple of times very early in going full-time as a founder because so many people were like, "Solopreneur? Is that even a like, is that even real? Like, you need to scale, you need to do this, you need a SaaS company."

And everybody had these really strong opinions about why this choice that I was so, so, so sure in was the wrong choice, why I was getting it wrong. And I felt like so sure but enough people told me I was wrong that I started questioning myself and I've seen that come up in like the way I create content and the way I show up in the world. Um, and at every point that I make a choice that goes against my intuition and what I really know is true to me, it goes very, very badly. Yeah.

So, 100%. It's a lesson that I keep learning, but to really trust myself. I love it. Last one.

You're not allowed to be in sales, you're not allowed to be in sales training, you're not allowed to do anything of the sort. What would you be doing right now? What does life look like for Leslie? What's what's the dream job?

I would be reading, reading and writing and eating. I would be uh, maybe like a like a Rick Steves or like an Anthony Bourdain but without the coke problem. That's my dream job. That is uh, that is my dream job.

Leslie, thank you for joining the show. Y'all, go check out this book. You can get it on Amazon, read it, leave a five-star review. I am slightly upset like this isn't signed or anything.

I didn't get this like everyone else. I'll bring it. I'm going to bring it and we're going to get a signature. Leslie, thanks for joining.

I have special pen, special gold pens to stay on brand. So, I will be ready to write something very nice in your book in November in Tampa. Nice. I like it.

I like it. We will see you then. Cheers.