Win More B2B Deals by Pitching Quantitative ROI | Ryan Milligan

Ryan Milligan, Chief Revenue Officer at QuotaPath, shares his unique perspective on transitioning from a RevOps leader to a CRO and how that background helps him build truly scalable revenue systems. He emphasizes the importance of aligning the entire go-to-market team around a clearly defined ICP and using compensation structures to strategically drive specific, high-value behaviors, such as securing multi-year contracts to improve NRR. Beyond compensation strategy, Ryan breaks down why modern sellers must pivot to pitching strict, quantitative ROI rather than relying on vague promises of "saving time" or "doing things better." He details how to build a bulletproof business case for a CFO by tying product outcomes directly to baseline metrics, gross revenue retention, and bottom-line impact. Finally, he shares insights on how to make SaaS products highly defensible in the era of AI by deeply embedding workflows and making them a collaborative team sport.

Discussed in this episode

• Transitioning from a RevOps leader to a CRO and how it shapes a focus on scalable revenue systems.
• Defining what a great customer looks like to align BDRs, AEs, and AMs on the same goals.
• Using compensation accelerators to drastically shift seller behavior and increase multi-year deals.
• Building a compelling CFO business case by combining revenue retention, commission offsets, and renewal tax.
• Debating the specific merits of consumption-based pricing versus traditional ARR models in B2B software.
• Tying Customer Success and Account Management compensation directly to early indicators of product value.
• The necessity of pitching quantitative ROI instead of relying on vague "time savings" benefits.
• Making SaaS products highly defensible in the AI era through deep partnerships and embedded CRM workflows.

Episode highlights

1. 0:00 — Ryan's RevOps to CRO transition
2. 3:00 — Defining a scalable revenue system
3. 5:30 — How compensation drives seller behavior
4. 8:45 — Getting CFO buy-in for accelerators
5. 12:20 — Incorporating Gross Revenue Retention into comp
6. 16:00 — Consumption-based pricing vs traditional ARR
7. 21:30 — Defining time-to-value for post-sales
8. 27:15 — Pitching strict quantitative ROI
9. 32:00 — Building defensible software against AI
10. 36:45 — Rapid fire leadership questions

Key takeaways

• Compensation plans instantly drive seller behaviors.
• Define "better" using strict quantitative math.
• CFOs value multi-year deals at a premium.
• Integrate software deeply to build defensibility.
• Stop conducting disjointed multi-stage discovery calls.

Transcript

You have to have a very clear like ROI You have to have a very clear like ROI You have to have a very clear like ROI laid out that the buyer agrees to as to laid out that the buyer agrees to as to laid out that the buyer agrees to as to like why what justifies the purchase of like why what justifies the purchase of like why what justifies the purchase of the product. Define what effing better the product. Define what effing better the product. Define what effing better means because better isn't going to help means because better isn't going to help means because better isn't going to help me get you to success.

Is better three me get you to success. Is better three me get you to success. Is better three is better 10 is better 154. Like in is better 10 is better 154.

Like in is better 10 is better 154. Like in order for me to know that I think order for me to know that I think order for me to know that I think sellers have to be leading with the sellers have to be leading with the sellers have to be leading with the quantitative ROI. Welcome back to another episode of the Welcome back to another episode of the Welcome back to another episode of the Bridge the Gap podcast powered by Bridge the Gap podcast powered by Bridge the Gap podcast powered by Revenue Reimagine. Today's guest is Ryan Revenue Reimagine.

Today's guest is Ryan Revenue Reimagine. Today's guest is Ryan Milligan who's the chief revenue officer Milligan who's the chief revenue officer Milligan who's the chief revenue officer at Quota Path. He's an expert in at Quota Path. He's an expert in at Quota Path.

He's an expert in building scalable revenue systems for building scalable revenue systems for building scalable revenue systems for high growth companies and followed what high growth companies and followed what high growth companies and followed what I like to call an untraditional path I like to call an untraditional path I like to call an untraditional path which we'll talk about. He is not a which we'll talk about. He is not a which we'll talk about. He is not a sales leader to CRO.

He's not a sales leader to CRO. He's not a sales leader to CRO. He's not a marketing leader to CRO. He is a RevOps marketing leader to CRO.

He is a RevOps marketing leader to CRO. He is a RevOps leader to CRO. And you all know how much leader to CRO. And you all know how much leader to CRO.

And you all know how much I love me some RevOps. So, we're going I love me some RevOps. So, we're going I love me some RevOps. So, we're going to talk about this for a bit.

He's to talk about this for a bit. He's to talk about this for a bit. He's helped companies align their GTM teams, helped companies align their GTM teams, helped companies align their GTM teams, create clear sales compensation create clear sales compensation create clear sales compensation structures, build forecasting models structures, build forecasting models structures, build forecasting models that link sales performance to business that link sales performance to business that link sales performance to business outcomes, and he's the man behind many outcomes, and he's the man behind many outcomes, and he's the man behind many of the systems that help organizations of the systems that help organizations of the systems that help organizations scale their revenue efficiently. Hence, scale their revenue efficiently.

Hence, scale their revenue efficiently. Hence, RevOps to CRO, not sales leader to CRO. RevOps to CRO, not sales leader to CRO. RevOps to CRO, not sales leader to CRO.

This episode's about building better This episode's about building better This episode's about building better sales performance systems, aligning sales performance systems, aligning sales performance systems, aligning revenue teams, and ensuring that revenue teams, and ensuring that revenue teams, and ensuring that activity translates into real measurable activity translates into real measurable activity translates into real measurable business growth. Ryan Milligan, thanks business growth. Ryan Milligan, thanks business growth. Ryan Milligan, thanks for joining the show.

for joining the show. for joining the show. >> Adam Dale, thanks for having me. I'm >> Adam Dale, thanks for having me.

I'm >> Adam Dale, thanks for having me. I'm really excited to be here. really excited to be here. really excited to be here.

>> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> it was my decision, not Dale. Just thank >> it was my decision, not Dale. Just thank >> it was my decision, not Dale. Just thank me, not me, not me, not >> Yeah, because he's such a RevOps nerd.

>> Yeah, because he's such a RevOps nerd. >> Yeah, because he's such a RevOps nerd. He He's like, I I need to have someone He He's like, I I need to have someone He He's like, I I need to have someone else that I can talk with besides Dale else that I can talk with besides Dale else that I can talk with besides Dale because he doesn't know anything about because he doesn't know anything about because he doesn't know anything about RevOps. But RevOps.

But RevOps. But >> that's [ __ ] Dale pretends not to >> that's [ __ ] Dale pretends not to >> that's [ __ ] Dale pretends not to know about RevOps, so everyone else does know about RevOps, so everyone else does know about RevOps, so everyone else does his work. He knows deeply about RevOps his work. He knows deeply about RevOps his work.

He knows deeply about RevOps and how to build it. He's just I don't and how to build it. He's just I don't and how to build it. He's just I don't know what's HubSpot.

know what's HubSpot. know what's HubSpot. >> I mean, if you can if you can pretend >> I mean, if you can if you can pretend >> I mean, if you can if you can pretend you're naive and the systems in place you're naive and the systems in place you're naive and the systems in place and you just have people go build it for and you just have people go build it for and you just have people go build it for you, it's a great system. You know, that you, it's a great system.

You know, that you, it's a great system. You know, that secret to RevOps. Pretend you don't know secret to RevOps. Pretend you don't know secret to RevOps.

Pretend you don't know how. No, I'm kidding. how. No, I'm kidding.

how. No, I'm kidding. >> All right. Sorry, I stepped on you.

>> All right. Sorry, I stepped on you. >> All right. Sorry, I stepped on you.

>> So funny. >> So funny. >> So funny. >> Yeah.

No. Um, and you and what Adam was >> Yeah. No. Um, and you and what Adam was >> Yeah.

No. Um, and you and what Adam was talking about in your intro is building talking about in your intro is building talking about in your intro is building scalable revenue operations. So, you've scalable revenue operations. So, you've scalable revenue operations.

So, you've been at the forefront of scaling web been at the forefront of scaling web been at the forefront of scaling web operations for for companies. What does operations for for companies. What does operations for for companies. What does a scalable revenue system actually look a scalable revenue system actually look a scalable revenue system actually look like?

like? like? >> Yeah, it's a great question. I think the >> Yeah, it's a great question.

I think the >> Yeah, it's a great question. I think the the biggest piece of it to me is that the biggest piece of it to me is that the biggest piece of it to me is that everybody in the organization knows what everybody in the organization knows what everybody in the organization knows what great revenue looks like. I think that's great revenue looks like. I think that's great revenue looks like.

I think that's the biggest challenge that orgs face is the biggest challenge that orgs face is the biggest challenge that orgs face is if you don't have a clearly defined ICP if you don't have a clearly defined ICP if you don't have a clearly defined ICP with a clearly defined problem they're with a clearly defined problem they're with a clearly defined problem they're trying to solve and what a great new trying to solve and what a great new trying to solve and what a great new customer looks like that the uh board is customer looks like that the uh board is customer looks like that the uh board is celebrating your sales leader celebrating your sales leader celebrating your sales leader celebrating your account management and celebrating your account management and celebrating your account management and like post sales teams are all evenly like post sales teams are all evenly like post sales teams are all evenly celebrating that this is a great celebrating that this is a great celebrating that this is a great customer for us to bring on and land and customer for us to bring on and land and customer for us to bring on and land and expand that is like the fundamental expand that is like the fundamental expand that is like the fundamental piece and I think you know I'm I'm a piece and I think you know I'm I'm a piece and I think you know I'm I'm a little bit biased but comp plays a very little bit biased but comp plays a very little bit biased but comp plays a very big role in that like how do you big role in that like how do you big role in that like how do you motivate uh broad components of a team motivate uh broad components of a team motivate uh broad components of a team across your BDRs, AES, AM to all care across your BDRs, AES, AM to all care across your BDRs, AES, AM to all care about the same types of customers and about the same types of customers and about the same types of customers and all bring them on and expand them. So all bring them on and expand them. So all bring them on and expand them. So the the fundamental architecture, we'll the the fundamental architecture, we'll the the fundamental architecture, we'll get more into it for me is you all know get more into it for me is you all know get more into it for me is you all know what a great customer looks like and you what a great customer looks like and you what a great customer looks like and you know it when you see it and that is the know it when you see it and that is the know it when you see it and that is the type of customer you're building around type of customer you're building around type of customer you're building around uh to improve you know expansion network uh to improve you know expansion network uh to improve you know expansion network retention for the business.

>> So talk about the comp for a second. We >> So talk about the comp for a second. We >> So talk about the comp for a second. We we say a lot that comp drives behavior, we say a lot that comp drives behavior, we say a lot that comp drives behavior, right?

I I think I post about it no right? I I think I post about it no right? I I think I post about it no fewer than a dozen times. Dale's posted fewer than a dozen times.

Dale's posted fewer than a dozen times. Dale's posted about it no fewer than a dozen times, about it no fewer than a dozen times, about it no fewer than a dozen times, but I actually, oddly enough, had a but I actually, oddly enough, had a but I actually, oddly enough, had a sales leader push back on me last week sales leader push back on me last week sales leader push back on me last week when I made a very similar post about when I made a very similar post about when I made a very similar post about compensation driving behavior, tied more compensation driving behavior, tied more compensation driving behavior, tied more to CS actually than it was to sales. I to CS actually than it was to sales. I to CS actually than it was to sales.

I think we're very used to this in sales. think we're very used to this in sales. think we're very used to this in sales. How do you bring that across the board How do you bring that across the board How do you bring that across the board and get executives to really buy in and and get executives to really buy in and and get executives to really buy in and lean into the fact that to get the lean into the fact that to get the lean into the fact that to get the behavior you want, compensation is going behavior you want, compensation is going behavior you want, compensation is going to have to drive that?

to have to drive that? to have to drive that? >> Yeah. I think there's a couple things >> Yeah.

I think there's a couple things >> Yeah. I think there's a couple things that I typically think about. One is that I typically think about. One is that I typically think about.

One is sharing a lot of the data we've done sharing a lot of the data we've done sharing a lot of the data we've done from experimentation with customers. from experimentation with customers. from experimentation with customers. These kind of pre-post uh what These kind of pre-post uh what These kind of pre-post uh what percentage of your revenue was great percentage of your revenue was great percentage of your revenue was great revenue before you ran some sort of revenue before you ran some sort of revenue before you ran some sort of accelerator and after.

And that's a lot accelerator and after. And that's a lot accelerator and after. And that's a lot of the work that we do here at of the work that we do here at of the work that we do here at Quotapath. So um I I lead the go to Quotapath.

So um I I lead the go to Quotapath. So um I I lead the go to market teams here at Quota Path and we market teams here at Quota Path and we market teams here at Quota Path and we try to help you use your comp plan to try to help you use your comp plan to try to help you use your comp plan to drive better performance from your reps drive better performance from your reps drive better performance from your reps right we save you time calculating right we save you time calculating right we save you time calculating paying commissions but the unique thing paying commissions but the unique thing paying commissions but the unique thing is hey let's help you use your comp plan is hey let's help you use your comp plan is hey let's help you use your comp plan to actually drive changes in behavior to actually drive changes in behavior to actually drive changes in behavior and so we try to show some of these and so we try to show some of these and so we try to show some of these stories that you know prior to using a stories that you know prior to using a stories that you know prior to using a tool like quotath and accelerating the tool like quotath and accelerating the tool like quotath and accelerating the commission rate for let's say multi-year commission rate for let's say multi-year commission rate for let's say multi-year deals we had one customer we were deals we had one customer we were deals we had one customer we were working with had 15% of their new working with had 15% of their new working with had 15% of their new business revenue in multi-year deals and business revenue in multi-year deals and business revenue in multi-year deals and we said hey let's run a test double your we said hey let's run a test double your we said hey let's run a test double your your commission rate you're going to pay your commission rate you're going to pay your commission rate you're going to pay on a two-year deal because on the total on a two-year deal because on the total on a two-year deal because on the total contract value it's effectively a wash contract value it's effectively a wash contract value it's effectively a wash and you also don't have to pay the AM to and you also don't have to pay the AM to and you also don't have to pay the AM to renew it. So, it's actually slightly renew it. So, it's actually slightly renew it.

So, it's actually slightly cheaper for you. Double the rate. You're cheaper for you. Double the rate.

You're cheaper for you. Double the rate. You're not going to do that forever, but double not going to do that forever, but double not going to do that forever, but double the rate for a quarter. Set aside 50 the rate for a quarter.

Set aside 50 the rate for a quarter. Set aside 50 grand. Let's test this and see. And what grand.

Let's test this and see. And what grand. Let's test this and see. And what happened was this customer bumped the happened was this customer bumped the happened was this customer bumped the percentage of their new business percentage of their new business percentage of their new business contracts in multi-year uh contracts contracts in multi-year uh contracts contracts in multi-year uh contracts from 15% one quarter to 75% the next from 15% one quarter to 75% the next from 15% one quarter to 75% the next quarter because the rep saw how much quarter because the rep saw how much quarter because the rep saw how much more lucrative it was for them to go more lucrative it was for them to go more lucrative it was for them to go close these longerterm contracts.

Now close these longerterm contracts. Now close these longerterm contracts. Now you have to explain to the rep, hey, you have to explain to the rep, hey, you have to explain to the rep, hey, we're going to spike and decline, right? we're going to spike and decline, right?

we're going to spike and decline, right? You're not going to always earn 2x the You're not going to always earn 2x the You're not going to always earn 2x the rate, but take advantage of the comp rate, but take advantage of the comp rate, but take advantage of the comp plan and take advantage of the business plan and take advantage of the business plan and take advantage of the business basically uh to show that we can like basically uh to show that we can like basically uh to show that we can like change the shape of this revenue and change the shape of this revenue and change the shape of this revenue and then kind of like shade it off over then kind of like shade it off over then kind of like shade it off over time. And from a CS perspective, I think time. And from a CS perspective, I think time.

And from a CS perspective, I think the same thing rings true. It's CSM and the same thing rings true. It's CSM and the same thing rings true. It's CSM and AM are in these renewal negotiations and AM are in these renewal negotiations and AM are in these renewal negotiations and they want to know what the gifts and they want to know what the gifts and they want to know what the gifts and gets are for the business and they want gets are for the business and they want gets are for the business and they want to be aligned from a compensation to be aligned from a compensation to be aligned from a compensation perspective to those gives and gets that perspective to those gives and gets that perspective to those gives and gets that they're more excited for longerterm they're more excited for longerterm they're more excited for longerterm renewals or renewals with testimonials renewals or renewals with testimonials renewals or renewals with testimonials or other things that they can fight for or other things that they can fight for or other things that they can fight for even if they're getting uh in a little even if they're getting uh in a little even if they're getting uh in a little bit of a challenge on the the total bit of a challenge on the the total bit of a challenge on the the total commercials.

And so having the AM commercials. And so having the AM commercials. And so having the AM aligned with that as well to try to aligned with that as well to try to aligned with that as well to try to secure a win for the business and then a secure a win for the business and then a secure a win for the business and then a win for their wallet. You rarely have win for their wallet.

You rarely have win for their wallet. You rarely have that opportunity in, you know, these that opportunity in, you know, these that opportunity in, you know, these days and that's that's what we've seen a days and that's that's what we've seen a days and that's that's what we've seen a lot with our customers. lot with our customers. lot with our customers.

>> So I want to click into that for a >> So I want to click into that for a >> So I want to click into that for a second. So I I don't think it was you. second. So I I don't think it was you.

second. So I I don't think it was you. Maybe it was. So someone posted about Maybe it was.

So someone posted about Maybe it was. So someone posted about this on LinkedIn the other day um about this on LinkedIn the other day um about this on LinkedIn the other day um about um doubling comp on multi-year deals or um doubling comp on multi-year deals or um doubling comp on multi-year deals or three-year deals, etc., etc. And there three-year deals, etc.

, etc. And there three-year deals, etc., etc. And there was a good amount of push back in the was a good amount of push back in the was a good amount of push back in the comments of oh I'd love to see the CFO comments of oh I'd love to see the CFO comments of oh I'd love to see the CFO who approved that and you know how do who approved that and you know how do who approved that and you know how do how does that play into CAC and like how how does that play into CAC and like how how does that play into CAC and like how do you gain CFO buyin for that?

like how do you gain CFO buyin for that? like how do you gain CFO buyin for that? like how much modeling, especially as a rev ops much modeling, especially as a rev ops much modeling, especially as a rev ops leader, Ryan, how much modeling do you leader, Ryan, how much modeling do you leader, Ryan, how much modeling do you actually have to do to go and say, actually have to do to go and say, actually have to do to go and say, "Listen, like yes, you're absolutely "Listen, like yes, you're absolutely "Listen, like yes, you're absolutely going to pay more." And on the surface, going to pay more."

And on the surface, going to pay more." And on the surface, this makes no sense whatsoever. But this makes no sense whatsoever. But this makes no sense whatsoever.

But here's why. And I like what you're here's why. And I like what you're here's why. And I like what you're talking about, right?

Like at the end of talking about, right? Like at the end of talking about, right? Like at the end of the day, there is a dollar figure the day, there is a dollar figure the day, there is a dollar figure associated with going and having to associated with going and having to associated with going and having to renew this. H how do you balance that?

renew this. H how do you balance that? renew this. H how do you balance that?

And how do you model that? And how do you model that? And how do you model that? >> So, I think there's a couple things.

>> So, I think there's a couple things. >> So, I think there's a couple things. One, you look at your revenue retention One, you look at your revenue retention One, you look at your revenue retention every time you have a renewal and you every time you have a renewal and you every time you have a renewal and you say, "Okay, how much revenue am I say, "Okay, how much revenue am I say, "Okay, how much revenue am I typically losing when orgs are typically losing when orgs are typically losing when orgs are renewing?" And so you're taking that renewing?"

And so you're taking that renewing?" And so you're taking that like your GRR shave off and putting it like your GRR shave off and putting it like your GRR shave off and putting it in the accelerator as like one real in the accelerator as like one real in the accelerator as like one real dollar impact because these these dollar impact because these these dollar impact because these these customers are renewing. Then you're customers are renewing. Then you're customers are renewing.

Then you're figuring out what you're paying your AM figuring out what you're paying your AM figuring out what you're paying your AM your director of AM and potentially your your director of AM and potentially your your director of AM and potentially your CRO on these renewals. The less renewals CRO on these renewals. The less renewals CRO on these renewals. The less renewals you're running, uh you're paying less you're running, uh you're paying less you're running, uh you're paying less commission on those and that's going commission on those and that's going commission on those and that's going into the new business or even the the into the new business or even the the into the new business or even the the AM's comp for driving a longerterm AM's comp for driving a longerterm AM's comp for driving a longerterm renewal, right?

And then you're going renewal, right? And then you're going renewal, right? And then you're going through and figuring out the overall tax through and figuring out the overall tax through and figuring out the overall tax that going through a renewal process is that going through a renewal process is that going through a renewal process is having from a cost perspective outside having from a cost perspective outside having from a cost perspective outside of just the commission like how much of just the commission like how much of just the commission like how much time your AM are spending. And you're time your AM are spending.

And you're time your AM are spending. And you're presenting those three things together presenting those three things together presenting those three things together to your CFO. And then you're asking how to your CFO. And then you're asking how to your CFO.

And then you're asking how much happier would you be if how much much happier would you be if how much much happier would you be if how much would you value all of our contracts in would you value all of our contracts in would you value all of our contracts in these long you have the you have the these long you have the you have the these long you have the you have the quantitative quantitative quantitative >> quality of life like from a mental >> quality of life like from a mental >> quality of life like from a mental standpoint. standpoint. standpoint. >> Well, it's a quality of life, but it's >> Well, it's a quality of life, but it's >> Well, it's a quality of life, but it's also I mean it's a board narrative also I mean it's a board narrative also I mean it's a board narrative conversation.

You're improving gross and conversation. You're improving gross and conversation. You're improving gross and net revenue retention. um how much how net revenue retention.

um how much how net revenue retention. um how much how much healthier does your revenue much healthier does your revenue much healthier does your revenue present, right? And then uh how much do present, right? And then uh how much do present, right?

And then uh how much do you value this? And and what we tend to you value this? And and what we tend to you value this? And and what we tend to see is the average CFO values a two-year see is the average CFO values a two-year see is the average CFO values a two-year contract 40 50% more than they value a contract 40 50% more than they value a contract 40 50% more than they value a one-year contract.

Yet they're only one-year contract. Yet they're only one-year contract. Yet they're only willing to pay a rep 10% more on a willing to pay a rep 10% more on a willing to pay a rep 10% more on a two-year deal. And so those incentives two-year deal.

And so those incentives two-year deal. And so those incentives are disaled, especially when the rep is are disaled, especially when the rep is are disaled, especially when the rep is discounting two-year deals much more discounting two-year deals much more discounting two-year deals much more than they're discounting one-year deals, than they're discounting one-year deals, than they're discounting one-year deals, shaving into that incremental earnings. shaving into that incremental earnings. shaving into that incremental earnings.

Yeah. And Yeah. And Yeah. And >> so that's the piece that I play around >> so that's the piece that I play around >> so that's the piece that I play around with the CFOs that I talk to is if you with the CFOs that I talk to is if you with the CFOs that I talk to is if you if I could tell you overnight all your if I could tell you overnight all your if I could tell you overnight all your deals would be two-year deals, how much deals would be two-year deals, how much deals would be two-year deals, how much would you pay for it?

And they say they would you pay for it? And they say they would you pay for it? And they say they say much more than a 10% bump in the say much more than a 10% bump in the say much more than a 10% bump in the commission rate for me. commission rate for me.

commission rate for me. >> Sure. Sure. >> Sure.

Sure. >> Sure. Sure. >> Absolutely.

And I think that's the >> Absolutely. And I think that's the >> Absolutely. And I think that's the story. And the the other the other so I story.

And the the other the other so I story. And the the other the other so I had a quick question going a bit off had a quick question going a bit off had a quick question going a bit off topic as because this is topic as because this is topic as because this is happening as we speak as we talk with a happening as we speak as we talk with a happening as we speak as we talk with a lot of clients in comp plan building is lot of clients in comp plan building is lot of clients in comp plan building is are you putting GRR in sales comp plans are you putting GRR in sales comp plans are you putting GRR in sales comp plans versus CS comp plan. versus CS comp plan. versus CS comp plan.

>> We hear it a lot. I think that there's a >> We hear it a lot. I think that there's a >> We hear it a lot. I think that there's a couple things you have to keep in mind.

couple things you have to keep in mind. couple things you have to keep in mind. One is there's a distance between One is there's a distance between One is there's a distance between selling the deal and the act of selling the deal and the act of selling the deal and the act of renewing. And so it can feel quite renewing.

And so it can feel quite renewing. And so it can feel quite punitive if you're, you know, you're punitive if you're, you know, you're punitive if you're, you know, you're closing a deal today and the you're closing a deal today and the you're closing a deal today and the you're measured on are they renewing a year measured on are they renewing a year measured on are they renewing a year from now or ideally two three years from from now or ideally two three years from from now or ideally two three years from now. That gap from a cause and effect now. That gap from a cause and effect now.

That gap from a cause and effect perspective is challenging. What we see perspective is challenging. What we see perspective is challenging. What we see more orgs doing is they'll do an early more orgs doing is they'll do an early more orgs doing is they'll do an early signal of success.

So they'll do they'll signal of success. So they'll do they'll signal of success. So they'll do they'll comp on implementation complete or comp on implementation complete or comp on implementation complete or they'll comp on uh you know an early they'll comp on uh you know an early they'll comp on uh you know an early call scheduled or or something that's call scheduled or or something that's call scheduled or or something that's like a little tighter to show that or like a little tighter to show that or like a little tighter to show that or they'll they'll comp on they're using they'll they'll comp on they're using they'll they'll comp on they're using the product effectively in the first 30 the product effectively in the first 30 the product effectively in the first 30 days because you want the comp plan to days because you want the comp plan to days because you want the comp plan to drive the seller to change their drive the seller to change their drive the seller to change their behavior and have that immediate behavior and have that immediate behavior and have that immediate feedback loop. And if the feedback feedback loop.

And if the feedback feedback loop. And if the feedback loop's not a year or two years from now loop's not a year or two years from now loop's not a year or two years from now they're not going to you know it it they're not going to you know it it they're not going to you know it it doesn't change how they're operating. if doesn't change how they're operating. if doesn't change how they're operating.

if the Jones account that I closed in 2024 the Jones account that I closed in 2024 the Jones account that I closed in 2024 churns in 2026 like I'm a whole churns in 2026 like I'm a whole churns in 2026 like I'm a whole different seller than I was two years different seller than I was two years different seller than I was two years ago and that's where ago and that's where ago and that's where >> so before Adam goes because I can see >> so before Adam goes because I can see >> so before Adam goes because I can see him winding up um him winding up um him winding up um >> you know me so well >> you know me so well >> you know me so well >> so one of the problems that I'm seeing >> so one of the problems that I'm seeing >> so one of the problems that I'm seeing is that and this is this is a growth at is that and this is this is a growth at is that and this is this is a growth at all cost mentality that is kind of like all cost mentality that is kind of like all cost mentality that is kind of like a a lingering issue from a couple years a a lingering issue from a couple years a a lingering issue from a couple years ago ago ago >> is not selling into the ICP >> is not selling into the ICP >> is not selling into the ICP um and you may not see that in the first um and you may not see that in the first um and you may not see that in the first 30 60 as you're implementing, but as 30 60 as you're implementing, but as 30 60 as you're implementing, but as you're getting towards renewal, like you're getting towards renewal, like you're getting towards renewal, like that value proposition that you promised that value proposition that you promised that value proposition that you promised in the sales process, whether right, in the sales process, whether right, in the sales process, whether right, wrong, or indifferent, is not being wrong, or indifferent, is not being wrong, or indifferent, is not being held. So, um, I like where you're going held. So, um, I like where you're going held. So, um, I like where you're going with it, but I think we need to extend with it, but I think we need to extend with it, but I think we need to extend it out a little bit more into like are it out a little bit more into like are it out a little bit more into like are you really selling into our ICP, which you really selling into our ICP, which you really selling into our ICP, which to me becomes a leadership thing versus to me becomes a leadership thing versus to me becomes a leadership thing versus like a compensation thing.

like a compensation thing. like a compensation thing. >> Well, then the other thing I would say >> Well, then the other thing I would say >> Well, then the other thing I would say is do you do you know your ICP in a is do you do you know your ICP in a is do you do you know your ICP in a completely binary perspective? And if completely binary perspective?

And if completely binary perspective? And if you do most you do most you do most >> and so like we do for example so I can >> and so like we do for example so I can >> and so like we do for example so I can tell you hey this percentage of our tell you hey this percentage of our tell you hey this percentage of our business is ICP and this percentage is business is ICP and this percentage is business is ICP and this percentage is not and can you accelerate the not and can you accelerate the not and can you accelerate the commission rate for ICP or decelerate commission rate for ICP or decelerate commission rate for ICP or decelerate for nonICP or have something be in the for nonICP or have something be in the for nonICP or have something be in the middle um where at least 50% of your middle um where at least 50% of your middle um where at least 50% of your contracts have to be ICP in order to contracts have to be ICP in order to contracts have to be ICP in order to earn your full commission rate or earn your full commission rate or earn your full commission rate or something like that. So I think there's something like that. So I think there's something like that.

So I think there's things things things >> and then the question is like when your >> and then the question is like when your >> and then the question is like when your ICP changes do you know enough that your ICP changes do you know enough that your ICP changes do you know enough that your ICP is changing 6 months from now ICP is changing 6 months from now ICP is changing 6 months from now because the problem the problem with ICP because the problem the problem with ICP because the problem the problem with ICP or buying persona or any of these things or buying persona or any of these things or buying persona or any of these things as market changes shifts as comp plan I as market changes shifts as comp plan I as market changes shifts as comp plan I mean as features change and shift as mean as features change and shift as mean as features change and shift as competitors change and shift like your competitors change and shift like your competitors change and shift like your ICP is probably going to change and ICP is probably going to change and ICP is probably going to change and people are like oh I did an ICP work 12 people are like oh I did an ICP work 12 people are like oh I did an ICP work 12 months ago. I'm like it's outdated. months ago. I'm like it's outdated.

months ago. I'm like it's outdated. Well, you should I mean with all the Well, you should I mean with all the Well, you should I mean with all the tooling we have today, you should be tooling we have today, you should be tooling we have today, you should be doing that much more frequently than doing that much more frequently than doing that much more frequently than every 12 months. But every 12 months.

But every 12 months. But >> how frequently how frequently should you >> how frequently how frequently should you >> how frequently how frequently should you be looking your ICP? I'm going to sidet be looking your ICP? I'm going to sidet be looking your ICP?

I'm going to sidet track and then I do have a question to track and then I do have a question to track and then I do have a question to get back to. get back to. get back to. >> No, it's great.

I mean, we try to run it >> No, it's great. I mean, we try to run it >> No, it's great. I mean, we try to run it quarterly to like assume that we have quarterly to like assume that we have quarterly to like assume that we have the proper assumptions in place and and the proper assumptions in place and and the proper assumptions in place and and it's it's it doesn't have to be far too it's it's it doesn't have to be far too it's it's it doesn't have to be far too complicated. It's look at your your complicated.

It's look at your your complicated. It's look at your your markers of ICP versus non ICP. What are markers of ICP versus non ICP. What are markers of ICP versus non ICP.

What are your gross and net dollar retentions of your gross and net dollar retentions of your gross and net dollar retentions of those? Is there a gap that you expect those? Is there a gap that you expect those? Is there a gap that you expect there to be?

Uh and how do your win there to be? Uh and how do your win there to be? Uh and how do your win rates differ? and overall product rates differ?

and overall product rates differ? and overall product adoption and just like does that pass adoption and just like does that pass adoption and just like does that pass the overall like sniff test of like this the overall like sniff test of like this the overall like sniff test of like this is a a very distinct group of people who is a a very distinct group of people who is a a very distinct group of people who are getting a lot more value than these are getting a lot more value than these are getting a lot more value than these other customers and if not then it opens other customers and if not then it opens other customers and if not then it opens much deeper you know speculation and much deeper you know speculation and much deeper you know speculation and investigation but really I think people investigation but really I think people investigation but really I think people over complicate ICP candidly I think over complicate ICP candidly I think over complicate ICP candidly I think it's who are the people who are the most it's who are the people who are the most it's who are the people who are the most successful in your product and show that successful in your product and show that successful in your product and show that with their usage and their dollars and with their usage and their dollars and with their usage and their dollars and if you don't have a clear distinction if you don't have a clear distinction if you don't have a clear distinction between your ICP and nonICP performance between your ICP and nonICP performance between your ICP and nonICP performance then that warrants like a then that warrants like a then that warrants like a rearchitecture, but most times I I don't rearchitecture, but most times I I don't rearchitecture, but most times I I don't think it tends to. think it tends to. think it tends to.

>> So, you talked this is the second time >> So, you talked this is the second time >> So, you talked this is the second time or third time you mentioned um time to or third time you mentioned um time to or third time you mentioned um time to value and I think that that's something value and I think that that's something value and I think that that's something really important. Manny Medina posted really important. Manny Medina posted really important. Manny Medina posted this weekend um on LinkedIn um about this weekend um on LinkedIn um about this weekend um on LinkedIn um about time to value and switching to uh time to value and switching to uh time to value and switching to uh consumption based pricing and value consumption based pricing and value consumption based pricing and value based pricing and how everyone everyone based pricing and how everyone everyone based pricing and how everyone everyone needs to stop talking about ARR needs to stop talking about ARR needs to stop talking about ARR compensating on ARR from the board level compensating on ARR from the board level compensating on ARR from the board level down to the C level down to the IC down to the C level down to the IC down to the C level down to the IC level.

How does that Ryan affect well level. How does that Ryan affect well level. How does that Ryan affect well first off do do you align with that? first off do do you align with that?

first off do do you align with that? I'll start there. Do you think we need I'll start there. Do you think we need I'll start there.

Do you think we need to stop talking ARR and start start to stop talking ARR and start start to stop talking ARR and start start talking value and consumption? And then talking value and consumption? And then talking value and consumption? And then I'll I'll I'll >> I'm a bit torn on this.

I'll be honest. >> I'm a bit torn on this. I'll be honest. >> I'm a bit torn on this.

I'll be honest. I think the challenge that I have with a I think the challenge that I have with a I think the challenge that I have with a consumption based pricing model is consumption based pricing model is consumption based pricing model is for some businesses it makes a lot of for some businesses it makes a lot of for some businesses it makes a lot of sense where the value is a function of sense where the value is a function of sense where the value is a function of their consumption. For others, you're their consumption. For others, you're their consumption.

For others, you're trying to force this con like this trying to force this con like this trying to force this con like this trendy consumption based model into a trendy consumption based model into a trendy consumption based model into a business that doesn't necessarily derive business that doesn't necessarily derive business that doesn't necessarily derive or like get a lot of value out of a or like get a lot of value out of a or like get a lot of value out of a consumption based model. Plus, I don't consumption based model. Plus, I don't consumption based model. Plus, I don't think gez my phone's going off.

I don't think gez my phone's going off. I don't think gez my phone's going off. I don't think the average uh think the average uh think the average uh >> you can answer >> you can answer >> you can answer >> uh plus I don't think the average CFO >> uh plus I don't think the average CFO >> uh plus I don't think the average CFO from a buying perspective is super from a buying perspective is super from a buying perspective is super excited to buy consumption based pricing excited to buy consumption based pricing excited to buy consumption based pricing software because they can't model out software because they can't model out software because they can't model out the cost of that in their business. I the cost of that in their business.

I the cost of that in their business. I think it's very fruitful for a business think it's very fruitful for a business think it's very fruitful for a business to have consumption based pricing but to have consumption based pricing but to have consumption based pricing but for a buyer a customer of consumption for a buyer a customer of consumption for a buyer a customer of consumption based pricing it leads to many headaches based pricing it leads to many headaches based pricing it leads to many headaches in terms of modeling cost of these tools in terms of modeling cost of these tools in terms of modeling cost of these tools you're using over the long term. Um, so you're using over the long term. Um, so you're using over the long term.

Um, so I I think there are certain businesses I I think there are certain businesses I I think there are certain businesses that certainly benefit from consumption that certainly benefit from consumption that certainly benefit from consumption based pricing or that make sense because based pricing or that make sense because based pricing or that make sense because the more you use it, the more value the more you use it, the more value the more you use it, the more value you're getting out of it. There are you're getting out of it. There are you're getting out of it. There are other tools that you're actually not other tools that you're actually not other tools that you're actually not using all that much, but you're getting using all that much, but you're getting using all that much, but you're getting a lot of discrete value when they're a lot of discrete value when they're a lot of discrete value when they're being used or there are certain moments being used or there are certain moments being used or there are certain moments of time in which they're being used that of time in which they're being used that of time in which they're being used that drive a lot of value where I think we're drive a lot of value where I think we're drive a lot of value where I think we're forcing consumption based pricing onto forcing consumption based pricing onto forcing consumption based pricing onto models that don't necessarily require models that don't necessarily require models that don't necessarily require it.

it. it. >> So I think that makes a ton of sense. I >> So I think that makes a ton of sense.

I >> So I think that makes a ton of sense. I I I agree with you. I I don't think I I agree with you. I I don't think I I agree with you.

I I don't think there's a one-sizefits-all for hardly there's a one-sizefits-all for hardly there's a one-sizefits-all for hardly anything in life. So, I I think it's anything in life. So, I I think it's anything in life. So, I I think it's very difficult to say, "Oh, consumption very difficult to say, "Oh, consumption very difficult to say, "Oh, consumption or oh, ARR," and I I think they all have or oh, ARR," and I I think they all have or oh, ARR," and I I think they all have their place.

Um I I think I could look their place. Um I I think I could look their place. Um I I think I could look at a lot of businesses that I've worked at a lot of businesses that I've worked at a lot of businesses that I've worked with or even know of where if you tried with or even know of where if you tried with or even know of where if you tried to do consump like I just don't even to do consump like I just don't even to do consump like I just don't even know where you would begin. Here's know where you would begin.

Here's know where you would begin. Here's something I keep seeing with sales teams something I keep seeing with sales teams something I keep seeing with sales teams I work with. Generic sequences don't I work with. Generic sequences don't I work with.

Generic sequences don't work anymore. We've all gotten so good work anymore. We've all gotten so good work anymore. We've all gotten so good at turning out the noise that even your at turning out the noise that even your at turning out the noise that even your own buyers are ignoring you.

The problem own buyers are ignoring you. The problem own buyers are ignoring you. The problem isn't your reps. It's that your isn't your reps.

It's that your isn't your reps. It's that your sequences are static and your signals sequences are static and your signals sequences are static and your signals are somewhere else entirely. That's why are somewhere else entirely. That's why are somewhere else entirely.

That's why our clients use Nooks. And the thing our clients use Nooks. And the thing our clients use Nooks. And the thing that stuck with me is that their that stuck with me is that their that stuck with me is that their sequences actually stay fresh because sequences actually stay fresh because sequences actually stay fresh because the signals update them automatically.

the signals update them automatically. the signals update them automatically. Right buyer, right moment with no manual Right buyer, right moment with no manual Right buyer, right moment with no manual babysitting. If your outbound feels like babysitting.

If your outbound feels like babysitting. If your outbound feels like it's shouting into a void, go check them it's shouting into a void, go check them it's shouting into a void, go check them out at nooks.ai/bridgeidgethe gap. gap.

gap. Um, and then I look at others where it's Um, and then I look at others where it's Um, and then I look at others where it's like, yeah, you're right. ARR doesn't like, yeah, you're right. ARR doesn't like, yeah, you're right.

ARR doesn't make sense. We have a client that's in make sense. We have a client that's in make sense. We have a client that's in the services space and they keep calling the services space and they keep calling the services space and they keep calling it ARR and like I think Dale and I are it ARR and like I think Dale and I are it ARR and like I think Dale and I are both like this is not annual recurring both like this is not annual recurring both like this is not annual recurring revenue.

No matter how you look at it, revenue. No matter how you look at it, revenue. No matter how you look at it, how you slice it, there's no way this is how you slice it, there's no way this is how you slice it, there's no way this is ARR. ARR.

ARR. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure.

>> Um but when it does come to whether it >> Um but when it does come to whether it >> Um but when it does come to whether it be consumption, whether it be value, be consumption, whether it be value, be consumption, whether it be value, like how do you build a comp plan or an like how do you build a comp plan or an like how do you build a comp plan or an accelerator based on value? Because I I accelerator based on value? Because I I accelerator based on value? Because I I do love that for the CS side.

So my wife do love that for the CS side. So my wife do love that for the CS side. So my wife leads a CS team of almost 100 people. leads a CS team of almost 100 people.

leads a CS team of almost 100 people. Um, and one of the big conversations Um, and one of the big conversations Um, and one of the big conversations that they have all the time with comp is that they have all the time with comp is that they have all the time with comp is time to value, right? We have to get time to value, right? We have to get time to value, right?

We have to get people in the product doing whatever it people in the product doing whatever it people in the product doing whatever it is they need to do by x amount of time is they need to do by x amount of time is they need to do by x amount of time because we know if they don't do this because we know if they don't do this because we know if they don't do this within x number of days, they're going within x number of days, they're going within x number of days, they're going to turn within y number of days. to turn within y number of days. to turn within y number of days. >> Sure.

How do you build that comp plan >> Sure. How do you build that comp plan >> Sure. How do you build that comp plan and drive that behavior so that your and drive that behavior so that your and drive that behavior so that your CSMs understand the importance of it CSMs understand the importance of it CSMs understand the importance of it other than what I find to be the normal other than what I find to be the normal other than what I find to be the normal conversation which is Ryan listen like conversation which is Ryan listen like conversation which is Ryan listen like we know that you know Billy Bob needs to we know that you know Billy Bob needs to we know that you know Billy Bob needs to go in and do these three actions within go in and do these three actions within go in and do these three actions within the first month. So it's really the first month.

So it's really the first month. So it's really important that you go get them to do important that you go get them to do important that you go get them to do that like go go go. that like go go go. that like go go go.

>> Yeah it's interesting. I think that it >> Yeah it's interesting. I think that it >> Yeah it's interesting. I think that it really depends on what the role of each really depends on what the role of each really depends on what the role of each person is within the organization to person is within the organization to person is within the organization to define how to lay that out.

I think a define how to lay that out. I think a define how to lay that out. I think a lot of times time to value I tend to see lot of times time to value I tend to see lot of times time to value I tend to see a lot more tied to these like a lot more tied to these like a lot more tied to these like implementation or like CS initial implementation or like CS initial implementation or like CS initial adopter types of roles where maybe the adopter types of roles where maybe the adopter types of roles where maybe the CSM is responsible for implementation CSM is responsible for implementation CSM is responsible for implementation and the AM is responsible for like the and the AM is responsible for like the and the AM is responsible for like the commercial relationship potentially. And commercial relationship potentially.

And commercial relationship potentially. And in a lot of those I do love hey uh in a lot of those I do love hey uh in a lot of those I do love hey uh you're completing implementation in X you're completing implementation in X you're completing implementation in X period of time or they're running X period of time or they're running X period of time or they're running X action. And so like for quotath major signal of value and you're getting major signal of value and you're getting major signal of value and you're getting uh your variable comp as a function of uh your variable comp as a function of uh your variable comp as a function of that and you can have a quota that is that and you can have a quota that is that and you can have a quota that is implemented dollars that did x within y implemented dollars that did x within y implemented dollars that did x within y period which I love and so you're you're period which I love and so you're you're period which I love and so you're you're totally owning are you like deriving totally owning are you like deriving totally owning are you like deriving that value and are they getting value that value and are they getting value that value and are they getting value early on in the process. I think the one early on in the process.

I think the one early on in the process. I think the one thing you have to be careful of in the thing you have to be careful of in the thing you have to be careful of in the full cycle, so you know, if if an AM is full cycle, so you know, if if an AM is full cycle, so you know, if if an AM is responsible for both implementation then responsible for both implementation then responsible for both implementation then ongoing value is making sure that you're ongoing value is making sure that you're ongoing value is making sure that you're not having too many variables that not having too many variables that not having too many variables that confuse an account manager who's confuse an account manager who's confuse an account manager who's responsible for both up and running and responsible for both up and running and responsible for both up and running and longer term, you know, gross and net longer term, you know, gross and net longer term, you know, gross and net dollar retention. And so what I dollar retention. And so what I dollar retention.

And so what I typically advise there is those those typically advise there is those those typically advise there is those those upfront signals like time to value or upfront signals like time to value or upfront signals like time to value or getting up and running the product in X getting up and running the product in X getting up and running the product in X days are a early indicator of their days are a early indicator of their days are a early indicator of their likelihood to renew and expand over some likelihood to renew and expand over some likelihood to renew and expand over some period of time. And so you're coaching period of time. And so you're coaching period of time. And so you're coaching your way with your AM through a lot of your way with your AM through a lot of your way with your AM through a lot of that making sure they're up and running that making sure they're up and running that making sure they're up and running so that they know the correlation so that they know the correlation so that they know the correlation between will they renew in six to nine between will they renew in six to nine between will they renew in six to nine months time.

months time. months time. >> Love it. 100% makes sense.

I do think >> Love it. 100% makes sense. I do think >> Love it. 100% makes sense.

I do think you know one of the things really you know one of the things really you know one of the things really interesting is probably two three or interesting is probably two three or interesting is probably two three or like I don't know four or five years ago like I don't know four or five years ago like I don't know four or five years ago there was this rise of CSM and versus AM there was this rise of CSM and versus AM there was this rise of CSM and versus AM and and the notion was these CSMs should and and the notion was these CSMs should and and the notion was these CSMs should should not be commercially measured should not be commercially measured should not be commercially measured right they they they are they are the right they they they are they are the right they they they are they are the the good guy bad guy relationship with the good guy bad guy relationship with the good guy bad guy relationship with the customer right the customer right the customer right >> I'm going to mute when you're done with >> I'm going to mute when you're done with >> I'm going to mute when you're done with this because Dale feels strongly about this because Dale feels strongly about this because Dale feels strongly about this and I know he's going to have a lot this and I know he's going to have a lot this and I know he's going to have a lot to say to say to say >> so there was this whole notion of okay >> so there was this whole notion of okay >> so there was this whole notion of okay the AM is responsible for like the the AM is responsible for like the the AM is responsible for like the commercial relationship they're the commercial relationship they're the commercial relationship they're the person basically trying to get you to person basically trying to get you to person basically trying to get you to paid more money and then the CSM is like paid more money and then the CSM is like paid more money and then the CSM is like your buddy who's not trying to get you your buddy who's not trying to get you your buddy who's not trying to get you to pay more money just wants you to be to pay more money just wants you to be to pay more money just wants you to be happy and there was this weird like happy and there was this weird like happy and there was this weird like overall tension and I felt it buying a overall tension and I felt it buying a overall tension and I felt it buying a lot of software where I'd work with the lot of software where I'd work with the lot of software where I'd work with the CSM all the time and have a great CSM all the time and have a great CSM all the time and have a great relationship and then an AM would come relationship and then an AM would come relationship and then an AM would come over the top and try to get me to expand over the top and try to get me to expand over the top and try to get me to expand or you know buy some other package or or you know buy some other package or or you know buy some other package or something which felt very clunky and something which felt very clunky and something which felt very clunky and disjointed. My take is that everybody disjointed. My take is that everybody disjointed. My take is that everybody needs to be very compensated.

Like needs to be very compensated. Like needs to be very compensated. Like everybody in the org needs to be everybody in the org needs to be everybody in the org needs to be measured on how well the customer does measured on how well the customer does measured on how well the customer does and they should care about how and they should care about how and they should care about how successful the customer is in a CSM successful the customer is in a CSM successful the customer is in a CSM role, in an AM role, what have you. And role, in an AM role, what have you.

And role, in an AM role, what have you. And so my push in these conversations always so my push in these conversations always so my push in these conversations always is if you have somebody who's working is if you have somebody who's working is if you have somebody who's working with a customer who's not variably with a customer who's not variably with a customer who's not variably compensated, then how are you measuring compensated, then how are you measuring compensated, then how are you measuring in a quantitative way how much value in a quantitative way how much value in a quantitative way how much value they are deriving or giving to the they are deriving or giving to the they are deriving or giving to the customer? And I'm glad we're I feel like customer? And I'm glad we're I feel like customer?

And I'm glad we're I feel like we're shifting past that, but it was a we're shifting past that, but it was a we're shifting past that, but it was a very big Zer era thing to have these very big Zer era thing to have these very big Zer era thing to have these like good guys CSM situations involved. like good guys CSM situations involved. like good guys CSM situations involved. >> You're on mute, Dale.

You sound amazing. >> You're on mute, Dale. You sound amazing. >> You're on mute, Dale.

You sound amazing. Best you've sounded all morning. Best you've sounded all morning. Best you've sounded all morning.

>> I think there's fundamentally a >> I think there's fundamentally a >> I think there's fundamentally a challenge with challenge with challenge with like the CSMs have always been running, like the CSMs have always been running, like the CSMs have always been running, which have been like project manager which have been like project manager which have been like project manager type based people. They've been the type based people. They've been the type based people. They've been the friendly people.

they like we get into friendly people. they like we get into friendly people. they like we get into this a lot and like how do we educate this a lot and like how do we educate this a lot and like how do we educate them? How do we educate them on revenue?

them? How do we educate them on revenue? them? How do we educate them on revenue?

Do they even want to do revenue? Um so Do they even want to do revenue? Um so Do they even want to do revenue? Um so that's that's part of the problem.

Um, that's that's part of the problem. Um, that's that's part of the problem. Um, and if your organization is big enough and if your organization is big enough and if your organization is big enough to have salespeople, AM and CSM, like it to have salespeople, AM and CSM, like it to have salespeople, AM and CSM, like it feels very clunky anyway, unless you feels very clunky anyway, unless you feels very clunky anyway, unless you almost split it up where you have, you almost split it up where you have, you almost split it up where you have, you know, AM's being responsible for know, AM's being responsible for know, AM's being responsible for expansion and you have CSM being expansion and you have CSM being expansion and you have CSM being responsible for retention and renewal. responsible for retention and renewal.

responsible for retention and renewal. And so you have like you can start And so you have like you can start And so you have like you can start targeting them on like GRR versus NRR targeting them on like GRR versus NRR targeting them on like GRR versus NRR and like you kind of work that whole and like you kind of work that whole and like you kind of work that whole process through. Um, we're working with process through. Um, we're working with process through.

Um, we're working with clients right now and like doing deep clients right now and like doing deep clients right now and like doing deep dives in the GRR. You see NRR going up dives in the GRR. You see NRR going up dives in the GRR. You see NRR going up like this and you see GRR like like this and you see GRR like like this and you see GRR like flattening out, going down.

It's a very flattening out, going down. It's a very flattening out, going down. It's a very difficult world to kind of like play difficult world to kind of like play difficult world to kind of like play those two together. Um, I wanted to go those two together.

Um, I wanted to go those two together. Um, I wanted to go back one piece though when when you were back one piece though when when you were back one piece though when when you were talking a little bit about time to value talking a little bit about time to value talking a little bit about time to value values within the CSM. I think the values within the CSM. I think the values within the CSM.

I think the biggest challenge that we have in that biggest challenge that we have in that biggest challenge that we have in that space is that it's not set up properly space is that it's not set up properly space is that it's not set up properly from the sales team. the sales team is from the sales team. the sales team is from the sales team. the sales team is not really articulating what the value not really articulating what the value not really articulating what the value should be or what the the customer can should be or what the the customer can should be or what the the customer can derive because they're afraid that derive because they're afraid that derive because they're afraid that they're not going to deliver what they're not going to deliver what they're not going to deliver what whatever the challenges or they're going whatever the challenges or they're going whatever the challenges or they're going to screw up the deal or whatever it is.

to screw up the deal or whatever it is. to screw up the deal or whatever it is. But if the CSM isn't aligned with the But if the CSM isn't aligned with the But if the CSM isn't aligned with the salesperson and the customer in the salesperson and the customer in the salesperson and the customer in the sales process, so pre-sale before you sales process, so pre-sale before you sales process, so pre-sale before you close it and we all align on like what close it and we all align on like what close it and we all align on like what we're trying to align on value. We were we're trying to align on value.

We were we're trying to align on value. We were just talking with a a group on some of just talking with a a group on some of just talking with a a group on some of our podcast stuff and you know one of our podcast stuff and you know one of our podcast stuff and you know one of the questions is you know what does the questions is you know what does the questions is you know what does value look like for you and that's the value look like for you and that's the value look like for you and that's the best question because it's like if we best question because it's like if we best question because it's like if we can't define that in the pre-sale like can't define that in the pre-sale like can't define that in the pre-sale like it's not going to get defined in the it's not going to get defined in the it's not going to get defined in the post sale. I don't care what this post sale. I don't care what this post sale.

I don't care what this because what's going to happen is the because what's going to happen is the because what's going to happen is the the people that you're selling to the the people that you're selling to the the people that you're selling to the buying committee on the pre-sale side is buying committee on the pre-sale side is buying committee on the pre-sale side is not the same people like 90% of the time not the same people like 90% of the time not the same people like 90% of the time are not the people that are doing the are not the people that are doing the are not the people that are doing the implementation work. They probably don't implementation work. They probably don't implementation work. They probably don't even know what the real problem is even know what the real problem is even know what the real problem is because they're diagnosing a symptom because they're diagnosing a symptom because they're diagnosing a symptom versus what the real problem is.

And versus what the real problem is. And versus what the real problem is. And then like you're starting to do the then like you're starting to do the then like you're starting to do the implementation work. They're like, I implementation work.

They're like, I implementation work. They're like, I know you were told like this is the know you were told like this is the know you were told like this is the problem, but our real problem is ABC. problem, but our real problem is ABC. problem, but our real problem is ABC.

And like now what do you do? Like now And like now what do you do? Like now And like now what do you do? Like now you got to go back to the salesperson, you got to go back to the salesperson, you got to go back to the salesperson, the buying committee.

So I actually the buying committee. So I actually the buying committee. So I actually think that value or that impact we do a think that value or that impact we do a think that value or that impact we do a lot with spiced what the impact is on lot with spiced what the impact is on lot with spiced what the impact is on the front end needs to be established the front end needs to be established the front end needs to be established and if it's not then you are not going and if it's not then you are not going and if it's not then you are not going to you're not going to re to you're not going to re to you're not going to re >> Yeah. I think the question in the in the >> Yeah.

I think the question in the in the >> Yeah. I think the question in the in the sales process, I mean, I completely sales process, I mean, I completely sales process, I mean, I completely agree. The question in the sales process agree. The question in the sales process agree.

The question in the sales process has to be in six months, what would what has to be in six months, what would what has to be in six months, what would what would make you like really happy and would make you like really happy and would make you like really happy and excited to continue using this product? excited to continue using this product? excited to continue using this product? And and for us, I mean, we have a pretty And and for us, I mean, we have a pretty And and for us, I mean, we have a pretty clear, hey, I want to I want to build clear, hey, I want to I want to build clear, hey, I want to I want to build the complants.

I want to calculate the the complants. I want to calculate the the complants. I want to calculate the commissions. I want my reps to be commissions.

I want my reps to be commissions. I want my reps to be excited, but I try to have the new excited, but I try to have the new excited, but I try to have the new business team basically. business team basically. business team basically.

>> But that's but that's very that's not >> But that's but that's very that's not >> But that's but that's very that's not like you got to get real specific on the like you got to get real specific on the like you got to get real specific on the value of it. like you're they're going value of it. like you're they're going value of it. like you're they're going to pay whatever amount of money for it.

to pay whatever amount of money for it. to pay whatever amount of money for it. So, not only do they want to be able to So, not only do they want to be able to So, not only do they want to be able to use it, but they have to like in my use it, but they have to like in my use it, but they have to like in my mind, you have to correlate to some mind, you have to correlate to some mind, you have to correlate to some revenue value, whether it's decrease in revenue value, whether it's decrease in revenue value, whether it's decrease in expenses, increase in whatever, blah expenses, increase in whatever, blah expenses, increase in whatever, blah blah talking to the you know, blah talking to the you know, blah talking to the you know, >> no, I mean, you you have to have you >> no, I mean, you you have to have you >> no, I mean, you you have to have you have to have a very clear like ROI laid have to have a very clear like ROI laid have to have a very clear like ROI laid out that the buyer agrees to as to like out that the buyer agrees to as to like out that the buyer agrees to as to like why what justifies the purchase of the why what justifies the purchase of the why what justifies the purchase of the product, right? And I think what's product, right?

And I think what's product, right? And I think what's what's been really interesting to me is what's been really interesting to me is what's been really interesting to me is >> you don't see that a lot though. Yeah. >> you don't see that a lot though.

Yeah. >> you don't see that a lot though. Yeah. And it drives me crazy.

And it drives me crazy. And it drives me crazy. >> That's the problem. >> That's the problem.

>> That's the problem. >> You get random things like I want I want >> You get random things like I want I want >> You get random things like I want I want to do something better. It's like, okay, to do something better. It's like, okay, to do something better.

It's like, okay, what does better mean? what does better mean? what does better mean? >> Perfect example.

And like not to >> Perfect example. And like not to >> Perfect example. And like not to sidetrack, but like Ryan, we we were on sidetrack, but like Ryan, we we were on sidetrack, but like Ryan, we we were on the show. We on the show.

We were on a the show. We on the show. We were on a the show. We on the show.

We were on a call. I don't want to say being pitched, call. I don't want to say being pitched, call. I don't want to say being pitched, but we were on a sales call before this.

but we were on a sales call before this. but we were on a sales call before this. Um, and I thought Dale that Rachel did a Um, and I thought Dale that Rachel did a Um, and I thought Dale that Rachel did a really good job like uh like I kept kept really good job like uh like I kept kept really good job like uh like I kept kept saying, "Oh, you know, we want this to saying, "Oh, you know, we want this to saying, "Oh, you know, we want this to be better." She's like, define what be better."

She's like, define what be better." She's like, define what effing better means because better isn't effing better means because better isn't effing better means because better isn't going to help me get you to success. Is going to help me get you to success. Is going to help me get you to success.

Is better three is better 10 is better 154. better three is better 10 is better 154. better three is better 10 is better 154. Like in order for me to know that we're Like in order for me to know that we're Like in order for me to know that we're hitting your objectives, what is better?

hitting your objectives, what is better? hitting your objectives, what is better? So to your point in this conversation, I So to your point in this conversation, I So to your point in this conversation, I don't think a lot of people do a really don't think a lot of people do a really don't think a lot of people do a really good job of great this is going to solve good job of great this is going to solve good job of great this is going to solve the problem for you and want this the problem for you and want this the problem for you and want this product. What does success actually look product.

What does success actually look product. What does success actually look like to you? Other solve the problem is like to you? Other solve the problem is like to you?

Other solve the problem is way too vague. Well, and I think sellers way too vague. Well, and I think sellers way too vague. Well, and I think sellers have to be leading with the quantitative have to be leading with the quantitative have to be leading with the quantitative ROI.

So, if you think about quota path, ROI. So, if you think about quota path, ROI. So, if you think about quota path, right? Um, we help you save time right?

Um, we help you save time right? Um, we help you save time calculating paying commissions. We save calculating paying commissions. We save calculating paying commissions.

We save time from your reps who are shadow time from your reps who are shadow time from your reps who are shadow accounting and like checking the math in accounting and like checking the math in accounting and like checking the math in their Excel spreadsheets. You then have their Excel spreadsheets. You then have their Excel spreadsheets. You then have repetition problems.

repetition problems. repetition problems. >> Reps do that. >> Reps do that.

>> Reps do that. >> You have repetition problems with the >> You have repetition problems with the >> You have repetition problems with the cost of losing your top rep if you pay cost of losing your top rep if you pay cost of losing your top rep if you pay them incorrectly. And then we're driving them incorrectly. And then we're driving them incorrectly.

And then we're driving better performance, right? Even those better performance, right? Even those better performance, right? Even those four sentences aren't enough.

You have four sentences aren't enough. You have four sentences aren't enough. You have to say, I'm going to drive like an to say, I'm going to drive like an to say, I'm going to drive like an average admin spends eight hours a month average admin spends eight hours a month average admin spends eight hours a month at a hundred bucks an hour calculating at a hundred bucks an hour calculating at a hundred bucks an hour calculating paying commissions. An average rep paying commissions.

An average rep paying commissions. An average rep spends and you quantif like spends and you quantif like spends and you quantif like quantitatively lay out this will drive quantitatively lay out this will drive quantitatively lay out this will drive 18x ROI for you because here's all the 18x ROI for you because here's all the 18x ROI for you because here's all the money you're saving. Here's the extra money you're saving. Here's the extra money you're saving.

Here's the extra lift in attainment we typically see. You lift in attainment we typically see. You lift in attainment we typically see. You know, see a 1 to 2% quoted attainment know, see a 1 to 2% quoted attainment know, see a 1 to 2% quoted attainment lift in the first six months.

All of lift in the first six months. All of lift in the first six months. All of that stacked into your team size divided that stacked into your team size divided that stacked into your team size divided by your costs. That better be 5x if not by your costs.

That better be 5x if not by your costs. That better be 5x if not 10x or more. uh or else you're not like 10x or more. uh or else you're not like 10x or more.

uh or else you're not like making a quantitative case. And it's making a quantitative case. And it's making a quantitative case. And it's amazing how many people won't go to just amazing how many people won't go to just amazing how many people won't go to just the numbers of that.

They'll just say, the numbers of that. They'll just say, the numbers of that. They'll just say, "Oh, we're going to save you time." It's "Oh, we're going to save you time."

It's "Oh, we're going to save you time." It's like, "Okay, well, how valuable is like, "Okay, well, how valuable is like, "Okay, well, how valuable is time?" time?" time?"

>> Which is the weakest value prop ever. >> Which is the weakest value prop ever. >> Which is the weakest value prop ever. >> Yes.

Exactly. Which is why we we >> Yes. Exactly. Which is why we we >> Yes.

Exactly. Which is why we we agrements and like driving better agrements and like driving better agrements and like driving better behavior because it's a much stronger behavior because it's a much stronger behavior because it's a much stronger value prop because what are you going to value prop because what are you going to value prop because what are you going to do with that time? Like, you know, I I do with that time? Like, you know, I I do with that time?

Like, you know, I I could just work that more out. That's could just work that more out. That's could just work that more out. That's that's what I was going to say like like that's what I was going to say like like that's what I was going to say like like okay so you're going to play with Claude okay so you're going to play with Claude okay so you're going to play with Claude 10 more hours like like what are you 10 more hours like like what are you 10 more hours like like what are you going to do with the extra time that you going to do with the extra time that you going to do with the extra time that you have right and I I think that becomes a have right and I I think that becomes a have right and I I think that becomes a slippery slope and then I think people slippery slope and then I think people slippery slope and then I think people do get stuck on the other side is like do get stuck on the other side is like do get stuck on the other side is like >> you don't have the avail you don't have >> you don't have the avail you don't have >> you don't have the avail you don't have the ability to change everything that the ability to change everything that the ability to change everything that happens in that process either so like happens in that process either so like happens in that process either so like you may be only one small part of the you may be only one small part of the you may be only one small part of the overall like better like attain like ca overall like better like attain like ca overall like better like attain like ca attainment type of Right.

So like you attainment type of Right. So like you attainment type of Right. So like you have to get really into like the have to get really into like the have to get really into like the measurement pieces of it. measurement pieces of it.

measurement pieces of it. >> Yeah. But I I do think these orgs have >> Yeah. But I I do think these orgs have >> Yeah.

But I I do think these orgs have to set loftier goals for like for how to set loftier goals for like for how to set loftier goals for like for how they're being measured within an they're being measured within an they're being measured within an organization. And so what I push my reps organization. And so what I push my reps organization. And so what I push my reps for a lot is for a lot is for a lot is >> we're not solving the process of >> we're not solving the process of >> we're not solving the process of calculating and paying commissions calculating and paying commissions calculating and paying commissions because if that's all you're doing, because if that's all you're doing, because if that's all you're doing, right, right, right, >> you go build a clawed tool tomorrow that >> you go build a clawed tool tomorrow that >> you go build a clawed tool tomorrow that will just calculate commissions a will just calculate commissions a will just calculate commissions a better, faster Excel.

We're trying to better, faster Excel. We're trying to better, faster Excel. We're trying to help you use your comp plan to drive the help you use your comp plan to drive the help you use your comp plan to drive the right type of revenue that your business right type of revenue that your business right type of revenue that your business needs in order to hit revenue targets, needs in order to hit revenue targets, needs in order to hit revenue targets, do fundraising, like do it like you have do fundraising, like do it like you have do fundraising, like do it like you have to ladder up all the way to Quotapath to ladder up all the way to Quotapath to ladder up all the way to Quotapath helps you achieve your revenue goals for helps you achieve your revenue goals for helps you achieve your revenue goals for long-term success. And if you don't get long-term success.

And if you don't get long-term success. And if you don't get there, then a buyer is not going to be there, then a buyer is not going to be there, then a buyer is not going to be able to make the case for you. And so able to make the case for you. And so able to make the case for you.

And so that's where I try to ladder up with that's where I try to ladder up with that's where I try to ladder up with with our reps to say, you're not saving with our reps to say, you're not saving with our reps to say, you're not saving time. You're time. You're time. You're >> fundamentally changing the shape of the >> fundamentally changing the shape of the >> fundamentally changing the shape of the revenue of this business.

And like we've revenue of this business. And like we've revenue of this business. And like we've seen that within our own business. Our seen that within our own business.

Our seen that within our own business. Our customers have too, but it it requires a customers have too, but it it requires a customers have too, but it it requires a lot more work to like justify that ROI lot more work to like justify that ROI lot more work to like justify that ROI for sure. for sure. for sure.

>> And and you also have to like put your I >> And and you also have to like put your I >> And and you also have to like put your I I think you have to push your your I think you have to push your your I think you have to push your your buyers because the other challenge I see buyers because the other challenge I see buyers because the other challenge I see a lot is you can calculate what the ROI a lot is you can calculate what the ROI a lot is you can calculate what the ROI is essentially, but they don't have a is essentially, but they don't have a is essentially, but they don't have a baseline. Like there's no baseline. So baseline. Like there's no baseline.

So baseline. Like there's no baseline. So they're like, I want to increase this by they're like, I want to increase this by they're like, I want to increase this by 10%. And that'll generate X in revenue.

10%. And that'll generate X in revenue. 10%. And that'll generate X in revenue.

Okay, where's our baseline? Well, we Okay, where's our baseline? Well, we Okay, where's our baseline? Well, we haven't really measured that.

They're haven't really measured that. They're haven't really measured that. They're like, oh, you know, it's like this is like, oh, you know, it's like this is like, oh, you know, it's like this is the amount or this is the amount and the amount or this is the amount and the amount or this is the amount and it's like some range. It's like, what's it's like some range.

It's like, what's it's like some range. It's like, what's your average deal size? I don't know, your average deal size? I don't know, your average deal size?

I don't know, from 10 to 80K a year. I'm like, okay, from 10 to 80K a year. I'm like, okay, from 10 to 80K a year. I'm like, okay, that's not an average deal size.

Like, that's not an average deal size. Like, that's not an average deal size. Like, and so I find very difficult difficult and so I find very difficult difficult and so I find very difficult difficult when you're selling conversations or when you're selling conversations or when you're selling conversations or when we're working with our clients is when we're working with our clients is when we're working with our clients is like what's the baseline and how are you like what's the baseline and how are you like what's the baseline and how are you going to attack the baseline to impact? going to attack the baseline to impact?

going to attack the baseline to impact? >> Yeah, for sure. No, it's uh it's a >> Yeah, for sure. No, it's uh it's a >> Yeah, for sure.

No, it's uh it's a really important point. for sure. really important point. for sure.

really important point. for sure. >> Comp drives so much and so many people >> Comp drives so much and so many people >> Comp drives so much and so many people get it wrong. Um, get it wrong.

Um, get it wrong. Um, I love, listen, I'm a huge quotath fan. I love, listen, I'm a huge quotath fan. I love, listen, I'm a huge quotath fan.

Um, I love what you guys do, but I think Um, I love what you guys do, but I think Um, I love what you guys do, but I think you nailed it on the head, right? Like, you nailed it on the head, right? Like, you nailed it on the head, right? Like, we're not building you a compl.

Um, we're not building you a compl. Um, we're not building you a compl. Um, anyone could build a comp calculator. I anyone could build a comp calculator.

I anyone could build a comp calculator. I mean, I I could build Excel spreadsheets mean, I I could build Excel spreadsheets mean, I I could build Excel spreadsheets now that I never would be able to before now that I never would be able to before now that I never would be able to before because of Claude. So could anyone else, because of Claude. So could anyone else, because of Claude.

So could anyone else, right? Like, if it's just comp, right? Like, if it's just comp, right? Like, if it's just comp, >> um, wrong tool.

But I think what what >> um, wrong tool. But I think what what >> um, wrong tool. But I think what what you just said applies to Quotapath and you just said applies to Quotapath and you just said applies to Quotapath and everyone else. Like we've talked a lot everyone else.

Like we've talked a lot everyone else. Like we've talked a lot about comm driving behavior, but in the about comm driving behavior, but in the about comm driving behavior, but in the age of AI now and being able to vibe age of AI now and being able to vibe age of AI now and being able to vibe code anything you want, your product has code anything you want, your product has code anything you want, your product has to be more defensible than ever before. to be more defensible than ever before. to be more defensible than ever before.

And I think a lot of people are failing And I think a lot of people are failing And I think a lot of people are failing on that. So wi with our last few minutes on that. So wi with our last few minutes on that. So wi with our last few minutes before we go into rapid fire like talk before we go into rapid fire like talk before we go into rapid fire like talk to me about some of the changes you guys to me about some of the changes you guys to me about some of the changes you guys have had to make and where you think have had to make and where you think have had to make and where you think other people have to make changes to other people have to make changes to other people have to make changes to make that product defensible in the make that product defensible in the make that product defensible in the world of AI where it's listen if we're world of AI where it's listen if we're world of AI where it's listen if we're just a calculator or if we're just a just a calculator or if we're just a just a calculator or if we're just a call recording tool or if we're just a call recording tool or if we're just a call recording tool or if we're just a insert it here go build that in cloud insert it here go build that in cloud insert it here go build that in cloud because everyone now thinks they could because everyone now thinks they could because everyone now thinks they could go build a tool in cloud other than go build a tool in cloud other than go build a tool in cloud other than enterprise security and I'd argue that enterprise security and I'd argue that enterprise security and I'd argue that you need more than enterprise security you need more than enterprise security you need more than enterprise security that cloud can't give you either.

that cloud can't give you either. that cloud can't give you either. >> Yeah. So I think there's been a couple >> Yeah.

So I think there's been a couple >> Yeah. So I think there's been a couple areas we've focused. One has been in the areas we've focused. One has been in the areas we've focused.

One has been in the depth of partnerships. So uh Graham depth of partnerships. So uh Graham depth of partnerships. So uh Graham Collins who runs our partnership has Collins who runs our partnership has Collins who runs our partnership has done a great job of of getting chief of done a great job of of getting chief of done a great job of of getting chief of staff, right?

staff, right? staff, right? >> Yes. Yeah.

So stepped into partnerships >> Yes. Yeah. So stepped into partnerships >> Yes. Yeah.

So stepped into partnerships role um and has done a great job role um and has done a great job role um and has done a great job embedding quota path in the system where embedding quota path in the system where embedding quota path in the system where our reps and our orgs are. So we are the our reps and our orgs are. So we are the our reps and our orgs are. So we are the only tool that pushes commission only tool that pushes commission only tool that pushes commission calculations and forecasting back into calculations and forecasting back into calculations and forecasting back into HubSpot for example.

And so you know or HubSpot for example. And so you know or HubSpot for example. And so you know or we push uh commissions directly into we push uh commissions directly into we push uh commissions directly into rippling for payroll. And so the rippling for payroll.

And so the rippling for payroll. And so the stickier you can get in embedding your stickier you can get in embedding your stickier you can get in embedding your product that you've built in these other product that you've built in these other product that you've built in these other products, you know, you can build a products, you know, you can build a products, you know, you can build a cloud tool that pulls from your CRM and cloud tool that pulls from your CRM and cloud tool that pulls from your CRM and calculates the commissions, but that calculates the commissions, but that calculates the commissions, but that tool is not then going to push this data tool is not then going to push this data tool is not then going to push this data into your next payroll run. It's not into your next payroll run. It's not into your next payroll run.

It's not going to push into uh CRM for your reps going to push into uh CRM for your reps going to push into uh CRM for your reps to see. And so that like level of to see. And so that like level of to see. And so that like level of connectivity with other tools steps connectivity with other tools steps connectivity with other tools steps beyond what you're going to calculate in beyond what you're going to calculate in beyond what you're going to calculate in a or build in a in a tool like Cloud.

Um a or build in a in a tool like Cloud. Um a or build in a in a tool like Cloud. Um the second thing is we want commissions the second thing is we want commissions the second thing is we want commissions to be a team sport. So like the model of to be a team sport.

So like the model of to be a team sport. So like the model of okay okay okay >> hey I'm gonna build a tool that allows >> hey I'm gonna build a tool that allows >> hey I'm gonna build a tool that allows me to download data from my CS or CRM me to download data from my CS or CRM me to download data from my CS or CRM throw it into this cloud tool and throw it into this cloud tool and throw it into this cloud tool and calculate commissions that works if calculate commissions that works if calculate commissions that works if you're just you are singularly you're just you are singularly you're just you are singularly responsible for the act of calculating responsible for the act of calculating responsible for the act of calculating and paying commissions. What we are and paying commissions. What we are and paying commissions.

What we are trying to do is actually use the comp trying to do is actually use the comp trying to do is actually use the comp plan to drive change of behavior. So it plan to drive change of behavior. So it plan to drive change of behavior. So it needs to be front and center with the needs to be front and center with the needs to be front and center with the reps.

The reps need to see how much uh reps. The reps need to see how much uh reps. The reps need to see how much uh how many deals they have in pipeline. how many deals they have in pipeline.

how many deals they have in pipeline. They need to forecast hey if I close They need to forecast hey if I close They need to forecast hey if I close this deal versus this deal this is how this deal versus this deal this is how this deal versus this deal this is how much more money I'm going to make. I'm much more money I'm going to make. I'm much more money I'm going to make.

I'm gonna make this much more money because gonna make this much more money because gonna make this much more money because it's a two-year multi-product deal it's a two-year multi-product deal it's a two-year multi-product deal versus a one-year single product deal. versus a one-year single product deal. versus a one-year single product deal. And even it may be a cheaper like it may And even it may be a cheaper like it may And even it may be a cheaper like it may be a lower ARR deal, but it makes me be a lower ARR deal, but it makes me be a lower ARR deal, but it makes me more money because it's better for the more money because it's better for the more money because it's better for the business.

And so, business. And so, business. And so, >> yes, could you go build a tool and claw >> yes, could you go build a tool and claw >> yes, could you go build a tool and claw that calculates commissions? Absolutely.

that calculates commissions? Absolutely. that calculates commissions? Absolutely.

But what we've really focused on is the But what we've really focused on is the But what we've really focused on is the depth of partnerships and pushing that depth of partnerships and pushing that depth of partnerships and pushing that data to the places where reps tend to be data to the places where reps tend to be data to the places where reps tend to be and then making commissions this team and then making commissions this team and then making commissions this team sport that's actually driving a change sport that's actually driving a change sport that's actually driving a change in behavior that you can't provision and in behavior that you can't provision and in behavior that you can't provision and do in a tool like a cloud. And so those do in a tool like a cloud. And so those do in a tool like a cloud. And so those are the two places where we've seen a are the two places where we've seen a are the two places where we've seen a lot of like unique differentiation.

lot of like unique differentiation. lot of like unique differentiation. >> I love that and I think that that's a >> I love that and I think that that's a >> I love that and I think that that's a great place to shift into rapid fire but great place to shift into rapid fire but great place to shift into rapid fire but not just for quota path for everyone. If not just for quota path for everyone.

If not just for quota path for everyone. If your tool isn't making things number one your tool isn't making things number one your tool isn't making things number one a team sport, number two adding value, a team sport, number two adding value, a team sport, number two adding value, um, and number three really showing how um, and number three really showing how um, and number three really showing how and why your tool solves X problem very and why your tool solves X problem very and why your tool solves X problem very specifically, you are going to find specifically, you are going to find specifically, you are going to find yourself out of business. Now, that yourself out of business. Now, that yourself out of business.

Now, that said, I think we see a lot of [ __ ] said, I think we see a lot of [ __ ] said, I think we see a lot of [ __ ] on LinkedIn of Claude just killed every on LinkedIn of Claude just killed every on LinkedIn of Claude just killed every SDR ever and Claude just killed every SDR ever and Claude just killed every SDR ever and Claude just killed every Claude's going to kill QuickBooks. Claude's going to kill QuickBooks. Claude's going to kill QuickBooks. Listen, folks, Claude ain't killing Listen, folks, Claude ain't killing Listen, folks, Claude ain't killing QuickBooks, okay?

I think Claude could QuickBooks, okay? I think Claude could QuickBooks, okay? I think Claude could do some pretty good accounting things, do some pretty good accounting things, do some pretty good accounting things, but Claude is not killing QuickBooks. but Claude is not killing QuickBooks.

but Claude is not killing QuickBooks. But I do think we live in a world, But I do think we live in a world, But I do think we live in a world, whether you're Quota Path, QuickBooks, whether you're Quota Path, QuickBooks, whether you're Quota Path, QuickBooks, Revenue Reimagined. Pick pick your Revenue Reimagined. Pick pick your Revenue Reimagined.

Pick pick your poison. Adopt or die, y'all. Um because poison. Adopt or die, y'all.

Um because poison. Adopt or die, y'all. Um because AI is coming for you and you have to be AI is coming for you and you have to be AI is coming for you and you have to be defensible. Um with that, let's move defensible.

Um with that, let's move defensible. Um with that, let's move into some rapid fire. So here's the into some rapid fire. So here's the into some rapid fire.

So here's the rules. 10 words or less is the goal. rules. 10 words or less is the goal.

rules. 10 words or less is the goal. What is one sales metric you think that What is one sales metric you think that What is one sales metric you think that companies overuse? Uh, Uh, Uh, pipeline coverage.

pipeline coverage. pipeline coverage. Man, I wish I I wish we could go into Man, I wish I I wish we could go into Man, I wish I I wish we could go into that. I agree.

>> A tool you can't live without in RevOps. >> A tool you can't live without in RevOps. >> A tool you can't live without in RevOps. >> Gone.

>> Spicy. I have a spicy take on that, but >> Spicy. I have a spicy take on that, but >> Spicy. I have a spicy take on that, but uh, another story for another time.

Uh, uh, another story for another time. Uh, uh, another story for another time. Uh, Ryan, what's the most important trait Ryan, what's the most important trait Ryan, what's the most important trait for a RevOps leader? for a RevOps leader?

for a RevOps leader? Empathy and curiosity. Empathy and curiosity. Empathy and curiosity.

Love those. Love those. Love those. >> Now, let's flip it.

One leadership trait >> Now, let's flip it. One leadership trait >> Now, let's flip it. One leadership trait that every CRO must possess. that every CRO must possess.

that every CRO must possess. >> Willingness to get in the weed >> Willingness to get in the weed >> Willingness to get in the weed >> can't be the same. >> can't be the same. >> can't be the same.

>> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Yeah.

You don't >> Yeah. You don't >> Yeah. You don't >> CRO are they they try to sit too high >> CRO are they they try to sit too high >> CRO are they they try to sit too high and they don't spar deeply enough with and they don't spar deeply enough with and they don't spar deeply enough with teams. teams.

teams. >> I love that. What um what's one thing >> I love that. What um what's one thing >> I love that.

What um what's one thing that sales teams should stop doing that sales teams should stop doing that sales teams should stop doing immediately? You come in, you're the new immediately? You come in, you're the new immediately? You come in, you're the new CRO.

What are you telling them to stop disjointed discovery calls? disjointed discovery calls? disjointed discovery calls? >> [ __ ] Adam >> [ __ ] Adam >> [ __ ] Adam >> like BDR disco then AE doing the same >> like BDR disco then AE doing the same >> like BDR disco then AE doing the same disco then more disco like then the demo disco then more disco like then the demo disco then more disco like then the demo then another disc.

Yeah, then another disc. Yeah, then another disc. Yeah, >> exactly. >> exactly.

>> exactly. >> Lot of dancing happening. Awesome. Last >> Lot of dancing happening.

Awesome. Last >> Lot of dancing happening. Awesome. Last one.

Ryan, uh dream vacation one. Ryan, uh dream vacation one. Ryan, uh dream vacation destination? destination?

destination? >> Japan. >> Japan. >> Japan.

>> Nice. >> Nice. >> Nice. >> We've never been.

>> We've never been. >> We've never been. >> We're getting a lot of Japan lately. >> We're getting a lot of Japan lately.

>> We're getting a lot of Japan lately. >> We're trying to go. It's our 10-y year >> We're trying to go. It's our 10-y year >> We're trying to go.

It's our 10-y year wedding anniversary in uh in September. wedding anniversary in uh in September. wedding anniversary in uh in September. So, we're trying to go in the spring is So, we're trying to go in the spring is So, we're trying to go in the spring is the goal.

the goal. the goal. >> Nice. Happy anniversary, man.

Happy >> Nice. Happy anniversary, man. Happy >> Nice. Happy anniversary, man.

Happy anniversary. anniversary. anniversary. >> It's on my list as well.

Ryan Milligan, >> It's on my list as well. Ryan Milligan, >> It's on my list as well. Ryan Milligan, thanks for joining the show. Y'all go thanks for joining the show.

Y'all go thanks for joining the show. Y'all go check out Quotapath. Listen, I am not check out Quotapath. Listen, I am not check out Quotapath.

Listen, I am not >> a sponsor. I am not a paid promoter. Um >> a sponsor. I am not a paid promoter.

Um >> a sponsor. I am not a paid promoter. Um I am however a a big believer and big I am however a a big believer and big I am however a a big believer and big fan um of what Ryan, AJ, Grant, and team fan um of what Ryan, AJ, Grant, and team fan um of what Ryan, AJ, Grant, and team are building over there. Um if you are are building over there.

Um if you are are building over there. Um if you are trying to solve your comp problems, and trying to solve your comp problems, and trying to solve your comp problems, and let's face it, y'all are um go check out let's face it, y'all are um go check out let's face it, y'all are um go check out Quotapath. Follow Ryan on LinkedIn. Quotapath.

Follow Ryan on LinkedIn. Quotapath. Follow Ryan on LinkedIn. Ryan, thanks for joining the show, man.

Ryan, thanks for joining the show, man. Ryan, thanks for joining the show, man. >> Thanks so much for having me. Really >> Thanks so much for having me.

Really >> Thanks so much for having me. Really enjoyed it. enjoyed it. enjoyed it.

>> Thank you, sir.