Why Passion is SO Important in Your Startup ft. Bowen Moody | Revenue Reimagined Ep. 048

In this episode, Bowen Moody, CEO and co-founder of Wonderway, shares his compelling journey of building an AI-powered sales coaching platform. He emphasizes the absolute necessity of founder passion—not just to keep going during the grueling lows of startup life, but to retain a committed team and aligned co-founders. Bowen recounts the intense challenges Wonderway faced during the 2022 tech recession, which forced a major product pivot from onboarding high-growth teams to maximizing rep efficiency with large language models. Beyond product strategy, Bowen drops a masterclass on navigating the complex founder-investor dynamic. He urges founders to treat VC advice as input rather than an absolute mandate, highlighting that the best investors actually expect pushback from a strong CEO. He also shares highly actionable advice on breaking into new markets and securing true strategic advisors, rather than settling for paid brand ambassadors.

Discussed in this episode

• How passion is the ultimate safety net for a founder to survive grueling recessions and co-founder turnover.
• Why AI conversation intelligence saves managers hours of call prep by automatically scoring reps against customizable scorecards.
• The importance of tweaking base sales methodologies like SPICED to fit your company's specific product and sales process.
• Why founders should treat advice from their investors as optional input rather than a direct order.
• The harsh reality of misaligned incentives between portfolio-driven VCs and single-shot startup founders.
• How the 2022 tech recession forced a massive pivot from sales onboarding tech to rep efficiency and ongoing coaching.
• The strategy of dominating local geographic and niche markets before attempting to cross the chasm into the broader US market.
• How to acquire top-tier industry advisors by building genuine relationships instead of just asking them for LinkedIn shoutouts.

Episode highlights

1. 0:00 — Introduction to Bowen Moody and Wonderway
2. 1:45 — The emotional origin story of Wonderway
3. 4:00 — Why passion is critical for startup founders
4. 7:15 — Solving the sales manager time-crunch with AI
5. 10:30 — Customizing playbooks to match your sales process
6. 12:45 — Why you shouldn't blindly follow investor advice
7. 17:00 — Surviving the 2022 SaaS market collapse
8. 20:30 — Pivoting to leverage Large Language Models
9. 22:15 — Breaking into the North American market
10. 24:30 — Earning real strategic advisors for your startup
11. 28:15 — Rapid fire questions and closing remarks

Key takeaways

• Passion is an essential buffer to survive startup downturns and setbacks.
• Automate your call prep so you can focus on actual human connection.
• Treat investor advice as strategic input, not as strict execution orders.
• Pivot swiftly when macroeconomic conditions suddenly destroy your core target market.
• Build authentic relationships to earn influential advisors, don't just ask for favors.

Transcript

Our chairman told me. He at one point, he said, stop doing what I tell you, you know, this is I I'm sitting there from a million miles away giving you armchair advice. I expect you to know better than me. And actually, it's a bad sign if you're just taking that and and executing on it without without putting your own thoughts.

Welcome back to another episode of the revenue reimagine podcast. We are so to have with us today Bowen Moody, who is the CEO and co-founder of Wonderway, an AI sales training and coaching platform. For the last seven years, he's been helping sales teams figure out how to leverage their data to identify gaps in their teams, what training is needed most, and what impact it's having on people's performance. The goal of today's podcast is to coach Dale and let him know what he needs to do to actually be successful.

With that said, Bowen, thanks for joining the show, man. I I didn't know that was the goal of today's call. It's uh, how coachable are you, Dale? Not, that's the problem.

Uh, we will find out how coachable I am. I try to coach Adam all the time. It's like, it's like a losing battle, so maybe we can uh, use Wonderway and our own uh, our own coaching pieces. Uh, I like a challenge.

Not not not if you build a fucking Dalebot, but Thanks for joining the show. One thing we'd like to start off with when we talk to founders is, is really the origin story. We find a lot of a lot of founders don't do a really great job of articulating why they started it emotionally pieces. You've started a company seven years ago, so you've kind of been up through ups and downs.

So, what made you start Wonderway? Okay, great. Yep. If you want the emotional side, then I think it all comes down to, um, what I was doing in my previous job.

I was in a job, corporate job that I wasn't happy with, um, trying to figure out what what was next, um, wanting to start a company on my own and I was literally sitting in my bedroom with a notepad and a piece of paper and I said I want to start a company, and I want to work on something that I can make money from, but also that is meaningful to me and that's helping people. And I went through, um, a lot of different ideas and landed on education and EdTech as being a space that I was excited about, um, because I think that that is yeah, it's the a nice balance and I think that's just such an important thing that maybe as you said, a lot of people overlook, um, because once you start that company, you're going to be sitting there talking to people about that topic every single day from the moment you wake up to the moment you finish work until the moment you go to sleep, um, you're going to be dreaming about it, right? And you know, not to not knock on anyone else, but for me personally, I'd find it very difficult to be motivated by doing like financial services or something like that. I think it is not something that appeals to me, but education, um, you know, I love it that every day I come to work and I talk to people about, you know, how do they get better, what are they, what are they looking to improve talking about self-development and I think that's really rewarding and and helps when when uh times are tough in startups as they always as they often are.

You know, it's funny because I I think No, go ahead. No, no, I was going to say that's the emotional catalyst, but I can also share the the actual sort of journey that I've been on through that. But uh, but that was the emotional catalyst and that sort of kicked it off. So I I do want to talk into about the journey a little bit, but you said something that I think is really important that a lot of founders either A don't talk about or B honestly think the opposite.

And you talk about like you're going to do it every day, right? So you have to be passionate about it. You have like this is what you talk about all day. Like all day, I talk about the fact that somehow this guy swindled me into working with him.

But when you think about that, there's a lot of founders out there that I don't think are super passionate about what they're doing. The great ones are, right? They love what they're building, they love what they're doing. But I've spoken with a ton of founders who are like, listen, like, I'm just about the product that's going to make me the most money or that I could flip as quickly as possible and there isn't that passion.

Whether it's your founder startup journey or even people you're bringing to the team, like how important like really do you think that passion is as you continue to grow and scale Wonderway? I think it's um, so important. I mean, um, you know, for me personally, to get through those tough times I mentioned, but also on my journey, I've had um two co-founders that have come and gone because they weren't as committed and they weren't as passionate. Um, and I think that that is an extremely painful experience to go through twice.

Um, you know, I I'm a I'm the CEO and and sort of the business side and and I work with two um two co-founders who were more on the tech side and they're excited about building building products, but I think sales training wasn't something that that sort of got them up every morning and I think um, you know, going through some of the tough times we have with COVID and um, you know, the recession, the tech industry over the last few years. I think that really comes to the fore if you're not if you're not passionate about the mission of the company. So I think it's it's important. I mean, it's been important for me.

I've seen the impact that it has on on co-founders and and I think it also comes through when you're recruiting and you're working with people as well, like being able to talk about passionately, finding people that want to get on the journey with you, um, they need to be, you know, if you've got a a meaningful mission and and you're excited about it and other people are too, then I think it's it's critical to build a to build a good culture and and, you know, get through those rough patches. Yeah, love it. It's very, very difficult. You kind of go up and down and, um, one of the things that happens, I mean, you've been been at this for seven years and you've kind of come into a space now that is getting super hot.

Um, this AI coaching, uh, being able to help other people coach. We've, we've worked with a lot of uh, revenue leaders, founders, who haven't done a great job of coaching because there's so much data. It's so overwhelming for them. Um, what will what does Wonderway do in a way to help them speed that up much quicker, have them, uh, be better coaches because we need better coaches.

Like no one really teaches revenue leaders how to be great revenue leaders. I think part of it is coaching. What is, what's Wonderway doing to help them be better coaches? Yeah, I think, um, you know, in a nutshell, it's it's preparing for those coaching conversations better.

Um, but I think the best way to explain that is maybe to to share my own experience. Like, um, before we built before we built Wonderway Coach, then I was using conversation intelligence tools. So, you know, I've been using Gong and course for for many years and and been recording the calls, um, yeah, for many years. And and I but I never had time to watch the calls of the sales team.

So, um, I always promise my sales reps I was going to watch um at least one call a week. It started per rep. Um then I adjusted my expectations. I said once every two weeks, once a month.

Um and I just it's just, you know, I'm also talking about call coaching. I know coaching is bigger than this. But I think call coaching is an important part for for sales leaders. Um and it's just it's so important to listen to those calls, but it's one of those um important but not urgent things that they should be doing.

Um at the end of the day, everyone knows they should be doing more, but um the day-to-day gets in the way and you know, if you've got an hour blocked in your calendar to listen to a call, that's one of those things you can always push. Um so I just personally, um, felt guilty about this and my team was hustling me about it that I wasn't listening to the calls. And, um, yeah, it was basically the catalyst that went into building the AI coach is that, um, once we saw what was possible with large language models that had been released in the last, you know, 12 to 18 months, um, we saw an opportunity here to build a coach that, um, actually listens to the calls for managers, scores them to see how well the rep is performing, um, according to a score card, similar to what a real human coach would do, um, summarizes what the main strengths and weaknesses were on the call, and then aggregates that data across across time. So, across week or month.

Um, what that allows us to do is basically build like a pre-built coaching plan for the managers for what are the main one or two areas of improvement that that rep has that you need to focus on them with. So, I think it just saves a lot of time, um, listening to the calls, you know, if you're going to do a proper call coaching session, you probably need to spend an hour or two listening to calls to prepare for your 30-minute coaching session with your rep. Um, the the key idea here and the opportunity we we saw and we're we're working on is is like, you know, how can we flip that? So, you can spend less time preparing and more time actually working with the rep on the things that matter.

Um, and I think that that is, you know, where that's something that AI can't do is like, you know, I think what managers need to do, what, you know, they need to be spending time with their reps. They need to be connecting with them. They need to be, um, translating that data into something that's meaningful within the company and and their personal motivations. Uh, but, you know, they don't have the time to spend, you know, hours and hours preparing for that.

They should be focusing on what they're good at, which is spending time with people and and connecting. So, I I agree with you, and I think, listen, we're all guilty of it, right? Like I certainly have had call coaching blocks and I'm like, ah, shit, like I got this presentation dude. Like there's always something that's more important.

Like I'm sad to say it, but it's always it's the lowest thing, right? Like it's it's not and it's I'll do it later, and then there there's never a later. Um, so I love that you're working to solve that. When you're building out, Bowen, this this coach, how how customizable is the coach?

Like, so for example, like Dale and I are two different leaders. We might have very different philosophies on what makes a good call versus a bad call. Like, how do you build that playbook or even more so, like, can it be like Adam's the coach, Bowen's the coach? Dale got fired from being a coach, but like, can you pick your coach?

We haven't got to the point yet where we can pick the coach, but it is definitely something we've we've played around with and we'd like to do eventually. Um, but it is fully customizable in terms of the playbook and the skills that you're focusing on. So, I think this is super important. Um, you know, mostly So, it's my it's my it's my playbook.

It might not be my voice, but like I'm building what's important to me. So, it is customizable, just not my face. It's quiet, Dale. Not a word.

I understand. I mean, what what we see is that, you know, every most companies that we're working with, they have kind of like a base methodology that they might be working with, you know, they might be working with SPIN or SPICED or MEDDIC or whatever, as a base methodology, but everyone then customizes it to fit their own product, their own industry, their own process. Um, so we have like within the product we have templates according to the key methodologies, and then you can take that, um, and you can tweak it to make it your own. So, of course, you can build it from scratch, but I think it makes it easier when there's a template to get started on, and then you can you can adjust it.

And you can have different playbooks for like call calls, discovery calls, demos, negotiations, implementations, etcetera. Um, but I think that customization piece is super important. Um, I mean, it needs to be specific to your sales process and and what's important to you. I'm super curious before Dale talks again.

Um, I'm just going to take over a little bit today. He takes over the sales call, so I'm going to take over the podcast. Um, of your clients, what what what sales methodology are you seeing being used a lot? And I ask because like LinkedIn's this echo chamber of shit, dude, like if you're not using MEDDIC, you you suck.

Oh, you got to use SPICED, or else you're never going to grow a sales. Like, do you see one amongst your customers that is like, this is this is the methodology of, you know, April 2024? Honestly, no. Um, maybe SPICED is probably actually the most popular, um, marginally, but I think that's more of a reflection of our customer base, that we're working with a lot of like, um, SaaS companies doing sort of mid-market deals.

Um, so I think that's maybe more a reflection of our customers rather than than sort of a a flavor at the the moment, um, a moment in time. Cool. Can I talk? Go ahead, Dale.

Add some add some value, please. Yeah, Adam always wants to aspire to be the coach that I am, so that's why he needs to Oh, yeah, we may need to help him, Bowen. Um, as a founder, you know that you get advice all over the place. You get advice on how to do X or what to do with Y.

Um, through your evolution, what are some of the things that you've gotten advice on, but you were like, eh, I'm not really sure I'm going to go down that path. But it actually turned out to your benefit. To my benefit, to ignore the advice that I got. Yeah.

Yeah. Um, I can think of lots of advice I got. Several cases for advice I got from my investors that turned out to be wrong. Um, Yeah.

And then And and I think founders struggle with this all the time, right? Because how do you so you get you get money from an investor, or you have people that are advising you that you almost feel guilty maybe, um, but you know in your heart it may not be the best for Wonderway. How do you balance that, and what advice would you give to these founders to be, uh, selective in the advice that they take on? I think that's a really good question because I've noticed a big difference in myself since I started.

I mean, I also had another, uh, company before this as well and and I think especially when I started out, I advice that I got from my investors, I thought, um, I thought was, uh, an order. Um, you know, they they suggest things but I thought that I need to go away and action that straight away. Whereas now I'm I'm much more I take it as input and, um, you know, I weigh it against, you know, I I don't just listen to investors. We have advisors, we have people on the team.

I talk to my wife about it all the time, you know, you take you take advice from multiple sources. She's she's the most important one, by the way. She's the most important one. Absolutely.

But I think I think, you know, now it's more you take advice from lots of people and you you you it's all input and then you just take it and you make your own decision. But I think when I first started, especially after you take a check of a million dollars from someone, you think that you need to do what they they tell you to do. But actually, the the crazy thing is that they don't want you to do what they tell you to do. They they don't want that.

I mean, that's also something my my our chairman told me. He at one point, he said, stop doing what I tell you, you know, this is I I'm sitting there from a million miles away giving you armchair advice. I expect you to know better than me. And actually, it's a bad sign if you're just taking that and and executing on it without without putting your own thoughts.

Super important. Like I I think that part is like pure gold. I like a lot of people feel like they have to or they can't push back on the investor, especially first time founders where you haven't done it before. Um, it it is important to be able to push back a little bit and have your own perspective.

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I mean, they they're doing their best, but you know, I I think a lot of founders over the last two years, um, you know, it's been tech recession going on. It's been tough for a lot of founders out there. And at the end of the day, you've got different incentives here. Like the investors have got a portfolio approach where they want to push everyone to to to go as hard as possible, and if if, you know, a couple of their startups crash and burn along the way, then it makes life easy for them in some ways.

They can focus on the winners. But of course, for a founder, you don't have that portfolio, you know, you've only got one shot. Um, so I think there has been, you know, you can read about online, but there's been a lot of conflict between investors and and founders. I don't think it needs to be a conflict, though.

I think it's just it's it's input. You take it, you have a conversation about it, and then, you know, at the end of the day, you do what is right for you. Um, and if they don't like it, they can fire you. But I think they're going to be less likely to fire you if you're if you're making your own, you know, I think there's more trust actually if you're if you're making good decisions, you're making your own decisions and you can back it up with the reasoning.

Um, I actually builds more confidence than someone who needs to be told what to do. They don't they don't they're not, you know, otherwise you're just an employee. I mean, they they want a CEO, um, and they can act as advisors, but they don't they don't want an employee. 100%.

I mean, when you look at the really successful startups or the really successful companies out there, it's the one that has the ones that have strong CEOs, opinionated CEOs. Like, it's okay to disagree with your investor. It's not okay to scream and yell and get in a pissing contest. Seen that too.

Um, but it is okay to disagree and explain why you disagree. Like, you said it best, like, they're not looking for a pushover to just say yes, because then you're an employee. Um, you're the CEO and the founder for a reason. So, I I I love that.

When you, when you look at the growth trajectory that y'all have had, um, and you look at where Wonderway started and where Wonderway is now, there's got to be some things along the way where like, things just really didn't go as planned, right? Like something happened. Um, and I I I I want to say other than COVID, because we're we're going to exclude COVID from this. But something happened where it's like, oh, shit, like, this is not what we signed up for, and this is a a big issue.

And maybe this is, you know, something with your co-founders, you know, that are no longer there. Maybe it's something different. But I'd love to dig in for other founders listening of like, what that looks like. How you dealt with that, and like, what are the lessons learned?

So, it doesn't happen again. Yep. Yeah, I mean, I think this will be a common story for a lot of startups over the last two years. Um, but, you know, we we raised our seed round at the end of 2021.

Um, uh, yeah, raised a seed round at the end of 2021. Um, got the money. The first thing we we did is we went out and hired like, what do we do? Triple the size of the team.

We went out and hired a bunch of people. Um, just got the just just finally got all the pieces in place and like, we were ready to rock and we had this financial plan where we're going to triple our revenue in in a in a year. Sorry, an important piece of this puzzle is that we at that time, we basically had a sales onboarding product that helped companies high growth high growth venture back companies who just raised a round to to ramp up sales reps as fast as possible. And we were growing tripled our revenue in 2021.

Um, uh, you know, when when there was the boom after COVID. So, we were looking hot. And then this recession hit just after we we got the team in place and the recession hit around, you know, I mean, April, May, 2022. Um, then suddenly everyone freaked out that, uh, that the the economy was going to turn down.

Venture funding dried up. Our target market basically evaporated. Um, and suddenly we had this team that was that was built to go 3X in a year, we're we're it was already obvious we weren't going to be able to hit that. And I think that was a super challenging moment.

Like we just spent a couple of months getting everyone in place. And, you know, what do you do here? Do you, you know, that's a that was a lot of conflicting advice. A lot of people saying, you know, fire everyone and and go back, uh, go back and and and, you know, lick your wounds, like sorry, hide until the end of the recession.

Other people were saying you got to push through. Um, and, you know, you're getting a lot of different advice. And in the end, um, you have to make your own call. So, for us, we had an onboarding product.

We knew that that wasn't going to hit in a recession, so we needed to change. Yeah. Um, and we knew, you know, people were saying we could just sit back and and wait it out, but nobody knew at that time how long it was going to last. Some people were saying six months, others were saying a year.

You know, now we're sitting here with the benefit of hindsight that it's two years going strong, I would say. So, I don't think we could just sit there on the money and wait. I mean, no one is boring, and in that time you could you could almost start again and build something else. So, what we did our choice and decision was we had the team in.

We knew we needed to change the product. So, we pivoted the product and we focused on ongoing training and helping sales teams get more out of the existing team they had. So, rather than hiring new sales reps, how do you increase the performance of those those that you have in the team? So, we pivoted to focus more on efficiency, um, you know, increasing conversion rates for the reps.

And we kept the whole product team on to to pivot the product. In fact, we actually kind of increased our spend more here on the R&D side. So, we leant in on this, um, we raised a bridge round very soon after, um, which was quite very difficult to do, but we we we secured it. And then we pushed our way we pushed our way through.

Um, and I'd say that, you know, a year I'd say that that that was a risky decision, but the alternative was to sort of give up and I don't think that that was an option. I didn't really see that as an option. So, um, admittedly, we then we we made this decision. I would say that it wasn't like it didn't just work itself out.

It said we got some more traction, it improved where we were, but it didn't solve our problems. Um, I think when we were working with the CRM and the efficiency, um, the CRM data to improve efficiency, we found that there are a lot of gaps, um, with the CRM data. There's only so much you can do with it. Um, it it can help to identify gaps, but it's not granular enough to really give really personalized recommendations.

So, I think if we had have, you know, where we sat at the end of 2020 two, beginning of 2023, we we hadn't nailed it, and maybe I would have looked like a bit of an idiot. Um, but I think in this case we got lucky because then the large language models got released, and a lot of the things we couldn't do with the CRM data suddenly became possible with the large language models. And what we'd invested the last year and a half learning on the product we've been building had taught us what we needed to then sort of pivot and build this this sort of third product, um, which then covered a lot of the gaps that we had before. So, um, and now since we've built the coach, I think it's a a significantly better product than what we had before.

Um, you know, 10 times better than what we were doing before, and and it's unlocked a lot of opportunities for us. So, um, yeah, coming back to the question that you had, that was a bit of a long answer. No, it's great. You know, that talking about the difficulties, like that was just a difficult choice, and and um, you know, as I said, co-founder got burnt out along the way.

By the time we wanted to pivot the second time to build the AI coach, he was out of steam because he didn't have the same um, vision and motivation that that that I had and other people in the team had. Um, and I think that that shows when these difficult times are coming. But I think the key thing is when times are tough, you know, are you going to do do you give up or do you push forward? And I think in our case, it ended up working out the right way because even though the second the first pivot probably probably wasn't enough on its own, it it unlocked the learnings that we needed to get to the next step.

So, and I think that comes back to a lot of founder's journeys is that it's it's it's a lot of stumbling along the way, stumbling from one step to the next. Um, but the learnings you get along the way and what that, you know, eventually turns into is also is is part of the process. Um, You got to have some resilience, that's for sure. Um, and uh, and I think it's difficult.

One of the things that I've seen a lot is I've I've done work with startup companies, in other companies, and all different countries. And we're talking today, you're in Berlin right now, and I'm sure like a big market is North America and and breaking into the North American market. We talk to a lot of founders in different countries that are trying to do the same thing. And vice versa, right?

This isn't just Europe or Asia trying to get into North America. North America tries to break into Europe and and other countries. For the founders out there trying to figure this out, because they they're going through this process. What is what's some advice you'd give them when you're thinking about breaking into a North American market, operating out of Europe?

Honestly, I I'd say that I haven't nailed it, so I'm not sure if I'm the best person to ask. Uh What are some of the learnings you've had that that have not been successful then? No, I if I look at our journey, I think, um, you know, it does make sense to stay we've been global since the beginning, but I think we where we got traction was like was in our home market in Germany to begin with, because I think we just benefited so much from that word of mouth, being in the startup like the the VC ecosystem. You get your first customers, and then, you know, they talk to each other, people founders know each other, investors know each other, and then, you know, we got we went very quickly, you know, from our first 10 customers to to maybe 30.

Um, and that was purely like the first 10 was such hard work, but then to get to 30 was a lot of word of mouth and inbound. Um, so I think actually staying local, like not not necessarily geographically as well. I mean, this is a this is not my advice. This is the um crossing the chasm, the book where they talk about creating echo chambers, right?

But I think that is just so powerful and maybe spreading yourself too thin too early is is a bad thing. I would I would agree with that that book. Now, when it comes to cracking into the US, um, it's such a good, you know, it's such a good market compared to Europe. It's it's so much easier in some ways that you know, it's a much bigger market, a lot more mature, um, a lot higher spend.

Uh, everyone's speaking English. So, I mean, it's it's a I think 50% of all SaaS spending is in the US and then the rest of the world is is everything else, right? But but yeah, I think getting into those communities in the US is something that I think we is is something that's worked well for us over the last year. It's also tied to our product.

We're doing something sexy as you said. AI AI is a hype, and we're doing an AI coach. So, I think what's worked well for us is rather than reaching out to companies as a as a tiny startup out of Germany that nobody knows about, um, was like getting into some of those communities, getting people like John Barrows, Kevin Gaither, Richard Harris on our board of advisors, getting on, um, you know, webinars and and um, conferences and things like this to get our name out, to build a bit of a reputation before we connect with people, is something that worked well for us. Um, so before Adam jumps in, before Adam jumps in, what are some what what's some advice that you would give the founders to try to get people like a John Barrows or a Richard Harris, like, you know, these are pretty substantial people.

Although you've been you've been working at it for a little bit of time, but people try to get these names on their on their products all the time. Yeah, I mean, for for us, it was a bit of a, um, it was a bit of a snowball effect. I mean, we got Richard Harris on. We were we were we started by connecting with him on doing podcasts and and webinars together.

Um, so we had a relationship there. And then he was really excited about what we were doing. He tried the product out. He got really excited about it.

And, um, I think it was actually his suggestion that he he wanted to come on as an advisor. So, we got Richard Harris on and and he was just amazing. I mean, the guy's just he's an incredibly nice guy and very generous. And he was so good at connecting us with people in the industry.

Um, and and he he was the one that introduced us to other advisors like like John and Kevin. I think he connected me with 20 20 people or something. But once you have that that, um, you know, that that warm introduction from someone they know and trust, then actually it was it was a lot easier. But again, I think this is where so, yeah, going back, like if we had to just been a tiny little startup out of Germany, reaching out to people in San Francisco cold, probably wouldn't work.

But when you you've got these names behind you and you've got their network and you can get those for first warm introductions, close the first customers, um, then I think it makes it a lot easier to to go from there. Yeah, it's those names are important, right? Like and we we have people and listen, I I we're not Richard Harris and John Barrows, one day, but like we have people who reach out to us at the wrong time also who are like, hey, like we're building this new product and we'd love for you to be an advisor and to do that, you need to like post about how great we are on LinkedIn. Like, you haven't freaking earned the right to ask me to post anything about you on LinkedIn.

Like let's let's build some credibility and let's learn the product, and let's really see how we could work together versus you just trying to get a name. So, I love the approach, like the way you talk about how and and I know Richard very well. Um, the way that you talk about how you built that relationship and started with the podcast and then started talking and what it developed into, that's what true advisory is versus, and we we don't have enough time to dive into this, what everyone is made advisory now, which is everyone's a fucking strategic advisor for everyone. And all you really are is a paid brand ambassador, and you're not a strategic advisor, and you're just trying to build up your your brand.

The way you're using strategic advisors as a founder is the right way to do it. You're seeking out industry experts who have deep domain expertise, who I'm I guarantee you're sitting around the table when you're giving you real advice that's not give me a script to go post about Wonderway on LinkedIn. Um, so kudos, kudos to you for doing that the right way. Dale, take a lesson, please.

Um, this was I think the other thing maybe just for the as you said, the founders that are reaching out. Maybe demands like, we didn't ask we Richard was the first one. We didn't ask him, he asked us. So I think that's also, I mean, that's um, that's kind of shit advice because if you're a founder who wants to do this, like I don't know what you do with that, but but it it it, you know, we didn't go to Richard saying, hey, be an advisor and and and, you know, here's things you can post on LinkedIn.

He came to us and we already knew him, but he was like, hey, I love what you're doing. Um, I tried it. It's great. Um, I think it's, you know, high impact and it's very aligned with what he he does.

I mean, he's a he's a sales trainer and a sales coach and we're building an AI sales trainer and coach. So, I think, you know, I think both I think John and Richard also said, you know, they see this as as a little bit of a threat to what they're doing as well. So, they're like, well, we can either be scared of it or we can get on board and, you know, if you if you end up, you know, taking over the world of of coaching, then then, you know, we'd like to get in that rather than I don't think that's the way it's going, by the way, for the record, but for there's a little bit of that conversation as well that, you know, if you're doing something hot and interesting, then then people want to participate as well. So, I think just for the founders that are listening who might be wondering if we out to people, I think, you know, building the relationship and making sure there's good alignment between what you're doing and what they stand for is is super important here.

100%. I love it. Great advice. Bowen, thank you so much for joining.

Before we let you go, we're going to dive into a little bit of rapid fire. Um, so we got a couple couple few questions for you. Uh, the rule here is your answer has to be 10 words or less, otherwise there's a gong that comes through the computer and bops you in your head. Um, actually, it's just Dale trying to get a free trip to Germany.

Um, all right, let's rock and roll. Early bird or night owl? Night owl. What's the first app you check when you wake up in the morning?

Changes. Uh, lately my workout app. Cool. Love it.

Anything's better than Slack, LinkedIn, any of those. The fact that it's not something work-related, um, I love it. Adam has a terrible but it is it's not the first app. It but it is it is one of the first few that are opened.

Uh, if Wonderway were an animal, what animal would it be and why? A dolphin, but for it's only because I've got it's connection between purple and dolphins in my head from childhood, I think. Um, I'll leave it there. It's less than 10, two more than 10 words.

Uh, last question, what's your um, dream vacation destination? Uh, powder skiing in Japan. Ah, nice. Nice.

Very nice. Awesome. Bowen, we are, uh, we are so grateful that you joined us. There is so much knowledge, I think specifically for founders, um, that were dropped here today.

Where, uh, where can people find you? Where can people find Wonderway? Uh, so LinkedIn, of course, uh, along with everybody else, and our website, Wonderway www.wonderway.

io. Um, you can jump on there and check out both our products there our website. Awesome. Cool.

Thank you for joining the show. Perfect. Thanks for having me. Thanks, Bowen.