We NEED More Women in Sales | Revenue Reimagined Ep. 013

This episode brings together Nikki Ivey, Ashley, and Katrina to discuss the pervasive underrepresentation of women in B2B sales and leadership. They highlight how visual cues—like the stark difference in bathroom lines at major SaaS conferences—make the gender disparity undeniable, yet systemic barriers remain deeply entrenched within corporate structures. The panel shares raw, personal experiences of being passed over for promotions despite outperforming peers, illustrating the widespread nature of the issue. The conversation shifts from surface-level diversity efforts to the harsh reality of 'economic exclusion.' The guests explain how 'prove it again' bias blocks women from leadership and training roles, while men are frequently hired based on potential. They emphasize that mere allyship isn't enough; true advocacy requires taking tangible actions to open back channels, vouch for women, and dismantle the systems that keep the C-suite homogeneous. To drive meaningful change, the panel outlines actionable steps for individuals and organizations. From intentionally mentoring underrepresented reps to calling out discriminatory conversations behind closed doors, the focus is on shifting from passive observation to active sponsorship. By building powerful communities of female sales professionals and publicly amplifying their voices, the industry can finally move past lip service and create genuine equity.

Discussed in this episode

The visual realization of gender disparity in SaaS, highlighted by the disproportionate bathroom lines at SaaStr.
How 'prove it again' bias prevents highly qualified women from breaking into sales leadership and training roles.
The critical difference between being a passive ally and an active advocate who opens back channels for women.
Framing the lack of women in sales leadership not just as a bias issue, but as systemic economic exclusion.
The danger of women having to be 'twice as good to get half as far' and how that perpetuates an unfair system.
Actionable ways to elevate female voices, such as intentionally sharing and tagging content from women in sales.
The importance of calling out discriminatory hiring practices, such as factoring in potential pregnancies behind closed doors.
Why building communities and networks among women is a more effective strategy than competing for limited 'token' seats.

Episode highlights

0:00 — The nuance of gender bias
3:15 — The SaaStr bathroom line realization
7:45 — Seeking female sales expertise
12:30 — Prove it again bias in leadership
18:20 — The power of back channeling
23:10 — Systemic economic exclusion
32:45 — Building a female sales community
41:00 — Speaking up against pregnancy bias
48:15 — Scaling mentorship through audio events
52:30 — Measurement and movement

Key takeaways

Stop waiting for a seat at the table; build your own community.
Transform passive allyship into active advocacy by opening doors for others.
Frame gender bias in sales hiring as systemic economic exclusion.
Elevate female voices by intentionally seeking and sharing their content daily.
Speak up immediately when discriminatory hiring practices happen behind closed doors.

Transcript

The nuance is that I'm not sure he got it because he was a dude. The nuance is that you didn't get it because of how people see women. And it's important to make that distinction because people start to get real defensive when you call out such a truth. Welcome to another episode of the Revenue Reimagined podcast.

It is a special episode, as you can see on your screen. We have three incredible co-hosts with us today to talk about something that is so important and arguably playing the sales and SAS industry. We have Ashley and Katrina from Ashley and Katrina's Infinite Revenue playlist and one of our very first original and best performing guests of the show, Nikki Ivy's back with us again. Ladies, thank oh and the Dale guy's here.

Ladies, thanks for joining us. Thanks for having us. Nikki was one of our first guests too. Yeah.

Nikki is there like something out there on LinkedIn that's like, if you need a first podcast guest, Nikki Ivy is the person to go after. Funny story. So, I was on um the Work Life um Work Life Balance podcast with um a gentleman named Evan Patterson. And he said, Nikki, you are the content waterfall.

And I was like, I'm reframing that. Yes. You should. So, I guess that answers your question.

It's weird to say something like that about myself. But, I guess we talked about this, Ashley and Katrina, on your show. You earned it. I was telling them that I have a difficult time like accepting compliments or saying, yeah, this is what I do and I do it well.

Um, when directly asked. I don't know why there is this like, you know, old evolutionary female urge I guess to be, oh I am legit and everyone's going to hold me accountable. I'm getting you a shirt that says, "I am" and on the back it's going to say, "The content waterfall." Um that that that that that shirt is coming when I when I when I do a shirt order.

I can't wait to find out what shirt I get. What are you? That's going to be the gift we give to our to our guests. "I am."

I am and then everyone gets something custom on the back. I can make it happen. I have a client that's a printing company. I can make this happen.

Um as much as I'd love to chat about t-shirts um and content waterfalls, we are uh we're here to talk about something much more important, right? So, it is Women in Sales month. Um it's the month of October. And there's not enough women in sales.

Where do we start? Because that that's a big one to start on, right? Like we we we can probably go for an hour. We only have 45 minutes or so.

Um but let's dive right in. Dale, that means you have to be quiet. I think one of the reasons that we connected is because I had noticed at Saster a huge difference between the the makeup of the the whole conference. It was very very prominently white male.

And that became really obvious when the bathroom lines were like insanely long for the men. Yes. And for the women they were not. And there are a lot of things I experienced at Saster that just made kind of all of the things that I've been feeling a little bit more prominent in my mind.

But, that was the reason that Adam and I connected and and talked about how this is legitimately a problem. And kudos to the two of you, Adam and Dale for giving us this platform to talk about this. But, it's it's a problem and it's a problem because women are usually outperforming men in their roles. So, it's not it's not because we don't deserve to be at the table in tech.

So, that's where we start. 100%. Like, you shouldn't like there should be more people trying to help and and elevate the women through. I was in one of those lines at Saster and I when you posted that on LinkedIn, I was like, that is so true.

And I I think as a male, you you're standing in that line, you're like, okay, there's something not right. But, like you don't always make that connection. So like, when I saw your post, I was like, yes, this is definitely the problem. We need to try to fix this more than just have lip service to it.

But, how do we do that? Like, how do we get more women at the table to have these conversations to elevate them? That's the million-dollar question, isn't it? And I think like there there's no one silver bullet to kind of address the situation.

I think it's really up to everyone as an individual to understand and recognize that it is an issue. It's not just something that women love to complain about on LinkedIn to get content out of. Like, I think the bathroom line, I think the reason why that was so significant is the first time I think a lot of men could really visualize, like, oh, there is a difference between the number of men and women in this industry. And the reason why Ashley and I actually know each other is because of this entire situation.

So, we randomly got connected in an online community, in a networking program. And one of the very first times that we got on the call together, Ashley, I'm putting you on the spot here, and I'm so sorry, but Ashley completely broke down crying on the call because she was undergoing some very uncomfortable and unfair situations at work due to the fact that she was a woman and even though she deserved a lot of things, she simply wasn't getting them. And she had no one to turn to on her team because she was one of very few women on the team. So, she was crying to an absolute stranger saying, oh my God, like, is it me?

Am I the problem? Not to quote Taylor Swift, but, you know, what do I do about this? And we very quickly realized that we both had a lot of the same problems and no one to talk to. And that was kind of of the birth of us starting our our meetup series that's that meets monthly for women in revenue.

And then it led to the podcast, which is really all about elevating the different voices of women in revenue because we want to be those people that are able to open the door for someone else and make this a better place for women to continue to join and and work at. For me, it starts with, you know, we're saying there's not enough women. What is enough women? And how do we know when we've arrived?

Right? You know, if we're talking about numbers, McKenzie and all the other smart research people could probably quantify this, right? Probably say, here is what equity would look like in a given uh profession, right? If if all things were equal.

But, one of the ways that it became obvious to me when I first uh became a seller, uh that there weren't enough women and what I think we can all uh take a look at is when I was pointed in the direction of people to learn from, right? Who to follow on social, whose books to read, whose workshops to go to. They were all men. And this is I started in in SAS, I'll start with SAS, was uh 2014, 2015.

So, they were all men and the implicit message then is that this is where sales expertise comes from. So, enough women, right? For well, for me, let's clarify. There's no such thing as enough women as far as I'm concerned, right?

You can never have too many. Uh but words, wigs, women's in charge. That's what I celebrate. But, so this idea of learning from women and focusing on who we're treating as experts, whose uh efforts to doll out that expertise are supported, you know, in in in words and in deed, right?

That is I think ground zero. At least in the sales profession for how we start to really understand the scope of the problem. Because now if we step back and you start to think about, right? What are the let's just say we're talking about sales podcasts?

Very few. Very few of them are women hosting them and, you know, the expertise coming from that. I actually experienced this. Back when I worked at Sweet Fish Media, who were um shout out to James Carbberry.

Uh back when I worked at Sweet Fish Media who were doing um sort of brand focused podcast marketing before most people, one of the biggest challenges was finding women to interview on the podcast as experts. I don't know if you all are running to that. Listen, we we we we struggle with it all the time. And you you said something that's so true.

Like, words are cheap, right? At the end of the day, actions are all that matter. We could all say shit all day long. But, until you put the actions behind it, it doesn't matter.

One of the things when Dale and I were starting our show that we said we want to be very deliberate about is not being the male show. And even with, and again, actions are all that matters, with making a very conscious effort, it's hard. Um and and I wish it wasn't. Um but it is.

And every com whether you're a podcast or a company hiring or whatever, like it's not just going to happen unless you put effort forth. Like the the the the women in sales isn't just going to show up and miraculously you're going to have a team that's 58 1/2% women. Like, you have to put effort in it from a sales leader to a podcast host to everything in between. But, stop saying you're going to do it.

Stop putting this cheeky little D E I bullshit on your website about how much we love diversity, equity and inclusion. Yet when you look at the board, the board is seven white dudes that all look like me with bald heads. That's a problem. Shout out to the bald heads.

My dad's a bald head. Uh but I I love the way your the way you're thinking about this, but I want to make sure when we talk about effort, like, yes, there are large scale efforts that need to happen. But, a lot of time it ends up being a bit of a bigger problem than any one individual salesperson could solve alone. But, if so, if if we're talking about what we as individuals can do, right?

To Katrina's point, right? About how it's individual people looking at their behavior or thinking about their the way that they think about stuff and and changing it. It doesn't cost anything to follow people on LinkedIn. And yet, most people, right?

Have way more followers than people who they are following, right? I guess Instagram told us it's a flex. I have no idea. But, one of the things I did, when I was thinking about this very issue, right?

Who am I learning from, right? Where is the expertise in my just in my LinkedIn timeline coming from? This was um was in May, it was right before Pride and I was holding myself accountable. I was like, Nikki, don't be the rainbow flag girl.

Don't just be talking about the same five, you know, queer sellers that you know. Figure it out. And so what I did was I went on to LinkedIn and I searched hashtags. I searched hashtags by topic and I just went through and saw what are who is posting talking about these issues.

Right? Who are these voices? Because they're not just going to organically make it to my timeline. Right.

They're not. And so I would say as a first step if we're talking about effort, it's it's a pretty low lift, right? Just search the hashtag sales. Find who the women are, right?

That are talking about the topic. And sure, you can be really discerning about, you know, how niche what they're talking about uh fits into what you're interested in. But, I would say at this point, there's so few, right? Of the voices that that are able to actually emerge of women in sales.

There there's no risk you run, right? By following as many women who are out here trying to lend our voice and our expertise to this profession as possible. Why are we not getting more women leading the education section of this? So you said something very interesting about the educational piece of it.

So like, when I think about people that are doing sales training, it is all male. And nothing, you know, John Barrows, amazing trainer. Dale Depree, amazing trainer. You know, all these people are really amazing trainers.

But, like, how do we find the women's voice to do these trainings to to build these companies? I think I am so glad oh sorry, go ahead, Ashley. I was just going to say as someone who has been trying to break into sales leadership as an individual contributor for an embarrassingly long amount of time, that door is very firmly closed and it's really hard to speak from a place of authority if someone won't even give you the job title. So, I like I'm getting emotional right now talking about this.

I went for promotion nine times at my last org. That's why I left. I'm I'm not trying to call anybody out, but I was given feedback that was not helpful. It was you're perfect for this job.

You do a great job. But, we just thought this other guy, this dude with way less experience, he's a better fit for us right now. And those are huge major problems. How am I supposed to go on LinkedIn and act like I'm a thought leader and be a sales trainer if someone won't even allow me to manage an SDR team?

Like, that's hard to do. So, I'm just telling you from experience, we have to open doors for women and we can't expect them to know how to perform in interviews against men because the deck is stacked from the minute we walk into the room. It's a problem. Yeah.

Sorry, Nikki, you go, girl. Yeah, just a little bit. But yeah, um, the nuance is that I'm not sure he got it because he was a dude. The nuance is that you didn't get it because of how people see women.

And it's important to make that distinction because people start to get real defensive when you call out such a truth. Right? Depending on how you say it. So if you say if someone says, you got it because you're a man.

Someone says like, wait a minute, I'm a man and no one ever gave me anything. But, you wouldn't know if someone ever didn't give someone else something, right? Because they weren't a dude. It's just not an experience that this person would have ever had.

So when I think about it, why would they right away understand it. The good news is though, and I don't know that it's required that folks who are not even willing to make the concession that like, yes, this is a thing that women are up against. I, you know, in my DEI work I've kind of taken the uh the mindset that I don't really need to bring those people along. I'm sorry.

I would love to come on here and, you know, spout sunshine and rainbows about, you know, how if if we can just reach these people and help them understand. Nah, women have been excellent for a long time. We don't have anything else to prove. It's been proven.

So, anybody that's sitting over there waiting for us to earn our seat at the table. I mean, I got folding chairs for those folks. Yeah. And I want to talk to every leader out there.

Like, the best leaders that I've had have been women. Like, the best leaders and managers that I've had, I've learned the most from the women's side of the conversation. They're more empathetic, they understand, they think deeply. Like, I think the thinking deeply is super important.

And they make you like, it's not very reactionary. So, I think we need as a as a leadership world, we need to make sure that we're I think enabling the back channeling. Cause I think what ends up happening, Ashley, is like, people get back channeled all the time. And I don't think enough women have the right back channels.

And I think the men that have these back channels need to open these doors for women to get the right back channels to have these conversations. Because I think that's the only way it starts opening up. Uh like, if you like, if I knew the person that was at that location, and I vouched for you, maybe you did some of this. I don't know, but I think that's what happens in a lot of these job interviews.

Like, you'll have a conversation, someone will back channel. Like, I know when I always went for a a position, I'd find all the people, I'd find out who's connected to who within that organization. And maybe what it is is like, how can we help people open up these back channels and have these conversations and start really promoting this is why Ashley deserves this position and you'd be really dumb not to have her go through this process and give her that position. Because you're right, we need women leaders to be able to do training because Nikki, after you said that, like, sparked the lightbulb to me.

Like, we don't have a lot of women trainers in the sales world. And that could start flipping the dynamic. Yeah. It's one of the reasons that um that Leslie Leslie Vannette and I are doing the event that we're doing.

And it's the reason why we've chosen #learnfromwomen uh as part of what we're going to be doing to promote the event. And it's you mentioned earlier, you mentioned uh John Barrows. One of my favorite things um, you know, in my brief time that I got to work with those folks, um is that they had it's a stable of fly ass sales Phillies. I mean, it was all women.

Right? And yeah, it's myself, Leslie Douglas, um Shelley, anyway, um, so so there was this stable it was all I was shocked because I hadn't seen that, you know what I'm saying, in the training space like you're talking about. And and this is like no slouch, like these women were carrying a million-dollar quotas, right? Selling sales training, which you all know is a very crowded space.

Very crowded. During the beginning of this little recession period that we were having, like, but that's what was what's going on there. Oh, and by the way, they're training too, right? They're delivering this world-class uh training.

Sometimes, you know, three, four sessions a day with with different orgs. So, the expertise is there, it exists and some people are hip. Like, just when I think Rachel May, like Rachel May is another one. Like, Rachel like, saw her at Saster.

There's so many incredible ones out there. Like, Dale you I also know Carly Hart that just because some of us haven't earned the title and haven't like earned the right to share, does not mean that we aren't perfectly capable of being fantastic sales trainers. Absolutely. It is very hard to motivate this is like an intrinsic thing related to imposter syndrome because I could go I there's a lot of a lot of knowledge I have and I've done the job without the title a million times.

And that is where it gets tricky because I feel like people are more likely to listen to somebody who is a dude than a woman if they haven't proven it and don't have the credentials behind their name. Yeah, it's called prove it again bias. That's what it's called. Um and I know her well.

Ashley, as you're talking, I'm just I am I'm smiling, I'm upbeat, but I am seething beneath the surface for what for what happened to you. And I know if you're healing, you're good. But like, come on. I mean, we we all as a man, I'm seething.

I mean, Ashley, you and I spoke when it was happening. Like, this was even before Surfing Sales. Like, and I remember sitting across I think I was sitting across the pool from you and I remember my blood boiling hearing this situation. It it's the problem is it's everywhere.

This is common, not just where you came from, not just where I've come from, not just where Dale works or where Nikki works. Like, this is a pervasive problem that happens over and over and over again. And Dale, you you said it. You know, you said your your best leaders have have been females.

Like, I tell the story on every podcast I guest on. I tell the story about the leader who fundamentally changed me as a human being and made me the leader I am. And guess what? Her name is Whitney.

Like, how this isn't being dealt with and fixed in 2023, almost 2024, blows my fucking mind. I think part of the problem is, and not to get all conspiracy theory on on patriarchal things. But, I think, you know, when I look at like the grand scheme of the problem, a system that's built to benefit a certain type of person, that person that goes through that system is not going to recognize that it's not made for someone else too. And if the majority of people in tech are men, they're going to go through life all happy, all danny saying, oh, things are great, right?

Like, if I work here for a few years, I get a promotion, I can jump and get a VP title, whatever it is, right? And like, yes, like, they're not innately like trying to fix the problem because it doesn't affect them directly on a daily basis. Versus now people are getting vocal and calling it out. And I think to go back to our lovely friend Leslie, she talked a lot about being an ally versus an advocate.

And in her definition, being an ally saying like, yes, I support women. Of course they should get equal pay. Of course they should get equal opportunities. But, Adam, as you said earlier, if you're just sitting there, spewing pretty words and doing nothing about it, what good are you actually doing versus a true advocate is actually putting their money where their mouth is and actively seeking out women to hire, actively opening doors and back channeling them at their company so they also have all the right information to land that VP title, whatever it might be.

But, of course, the typical person, I wouldn't call you two the typical person, right? Because like you have a really big platform and you guys are awesome and you call out problems like this. But, the typical man in tech is not thinking about these things, so they're not motivated to do anything to change it. From my perspective, should I say?

They don't even know it's a thing sometimes. I I'm telling you right now, on my exit interview with one of these leaders, I explained very specifically how I was feeling and, you know, I'm really excited to go somewhere where I can make an impact. And this person literally told me that he hoped I had more people like him in my life instead of this other person at the org who was clearly the problem. Even though this person was very much also part of the problem because he thought he was doing a good job and championing me.

And he also said in the same breath, you know, I'm glad you're moving on because I felt like maybe you didn't belong here. What am I supposed to do with that? Of course, that would have been helpful to know during these interviews where I was being told, next time, next time, you're up next. If you really didn't even ever see me as the person for the role, you have to be honest with people.

And in that case, maybe a little introspection over why you feel that way because he said he couldn't put his finger on it. It's because I'm a outspoken woman. That's why. That's what you can't put your finger on, sir.

Well, and and I think like if you're honest with yourself as well, do you really want to work in an environment like that? Like, that's not a place that I think you would thrive anyway. Like, I think it's like, we need to figure out ways that people can be in places that they're needed, executing, like, really thriving. And if this is the environment that these people are like creating inside of this organization, like, I hate to say this, you're better off way like where you are now and being able to like start with people that want to see you um succeed.

Because what what happens is, okay, now you start you're a leader in this organization, and if it's pervasive that this is the way people work, like, you're going to get undercut. And then what does that do like as you become a leader, if people are starting to undercut you underneath, that will erode your confidence as well. So, I I think it's a I think it's hard when it happens initially and, trust me, I I I feel really bad that these kinds of things are still happening. But, do you would you really want to be there if that's the way they actually cause it it actually starts at the top.

It's not like where that leader is, it's like up at the top. And if that person can't see it, it's very very difficult to crack any of those in the organization. Ever feel like keeping your CRM updated with call notes is a nightmare? You're not alone.

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Visit www.attention.tech. But Dale, the problem with that though is that it it misses the systemic thing that's at play here, right?

When we when we start to talk about it as if it's just this individual that needs to be educated, I think, you know, we have to be a little bit careful because if we follow that I I say this as a black woman. Uh I say this. But, yes, right? So, if I have to limit the places I can work.

My job pool is limited to only those people who are comfortable working with a black woman. And then of those people who are comfortable working with a black woman, those who don't have preconceived notions that might make them believe I wasn't fit. You're narrowing my job pool, Yeah. creating an inequity, it amounts to economic exclusion.

Yep. So, what I don't want to see, Ashley, is, oh, you go to some place else and hopefully there's some kind man to champion you, some benefactor. You know, I mean, this is not My Fair Lady. We good.

But, what so what needs to happen is that the actual issue is called out and unseated. And I think that when we start to talk about it as economic exclusion, then it makes perfect sense. Right? You can think about the same people who do this, right?

Who do what happened to you, Ashley. They have moms, they have sisters, they have daughters, they have wives. And the way they think of them in the back of their mind, whether consciously or unconsciously, right? is different often from the way that they would think of a colleague or an equal.

But, they want their daughter, their wife, to not be economically excluded. It'd be too easy for them to say, well, if I want my daughter to be successful, I'll just teach her to be confident. I'll just make sure that she gets in the right rooms. There it did, fixed it.

Right? No, no, no, no. What we're trying to prevent is not someone being mean to your daughter. What we're trying to prevent is not even just someone treating Ashley as unfairly as she was treated.

We're trying to unseat the system. We're trying to call attention to what's actually happening, which is again, that economic exclusion. And it multiplies itself. LinkedIn did a study a while ago.

You know, up to 78% or something of hiring comes from within people's networks. Yep. So like, it is what it is. And I have a lot of rage about it, but it's not getting me anywhere.

Right? So, so that's this is where I would begin. Framing this as, right? You are participating in the economic exclusion of women in this industry, in this profession.

You want to be doing that or you don't. If you don't, I don't actually care that you change your ideology. Just need you to change your behavior, which is way easier. Feel how you feel about women.

Feel how you feel about whether or not male privilege exists. But, if I show you these numbers on paper and I can quantify for you the economic exclusion of women at your organization, like, now you got to come to Jesus. Hmm. Also saying that you didn't want to be there anyway kind of takes away from like, we have to think about our careers very strategically, especially in 2023.

So, I spent over two years at that organization. And now I'm starting completely from scratch. And whether or not leadership is on the table for me at my new organization is completely a guessing game. And I can do the research, and I can ask the questions on the interview all day long.

But, that's the devil that I knew. And so going and trying again and again and being told, you know, not this time, but you looked really good, so like you're definitely going to get a seat at the table next time. Like, that's arguably easier for me to justify staying there and working hard to try to get it the next time than going somewhere completely new and having no idea what I'm getting into. There's just a lot more to it than that.

And it's Yeah, because then you'd be on the hook for, oh, all your short stints. Exactly. That's more things for them to use as bias against me in the hiring process later. And if they did give me that title and I got it for six months and I hated my life, I would have that title and I'd be able to get another job.

And I don't have that title in my background, so I can't get a job in that field or in that specific role that I'm perfectly qualified for, unless somebody wants to be like Nikki said, my benefactor. So, or finding or finding women that are leading in other organizations that have a path, which may or may not work as well, right? I mean, they're the same it's the same challenge all the time. Like, they're um I think we talked a little bit about before this about this as well.

Like, sometimes women that become leaders actually block other women from being leaders because they have felt like they've gone through that. So, I'd like to open that up a little bit, but I actually I I I totally hear what you're saying and I like I don't think leaving would be necessarily the right thing. Like, I think you're right. You could potentially get the next opening in the job.

I just wonder like systemically back to what Nikki's saying, at the leadership level, like, there's something systemically wrong if they go through the whole process. On paper, you are better even the same, the same or better and then they pass you up on the the the the job. I wonder like systemically at the top of the the heat the the company, there's a problem. Like, that's a problem even above the person.

Um because they they're they're not enabling or pushing down that this is something that should be happening. So, yeah, I I understand I understand the challenge. It's not I don't think it's an easy resolution to it. I do think like if at any point in time I could help you get in any place and I know somebody at some place who's looking for a leader, like, I would be happy to to put you up there because that's what does need to happen.

Like, we have to shine lights on people and show them that when they execute and they do the work that they're doing and they're successful, like, that's what companies should want to have happen. So, but the hack though, if anybody is curious about your particular situation, Ashley, what um what the numbers will tell you is that about five years ago or so, when black people got fed up with dealing with this particular issue, right? Like being passed over, being, you know, equal or better on paper and then being left as you were with really no other reason that you can come up with, right? Than that you didn't fit some org, uh black women in particular, we left the workforce for entrepreneurship.

Should we have had to do that? No. Is it still part of that economic exclusion piece? Yes.

But, when I hear you talking right now, Ashley, about who is empowered to bestow upon you some title of leadership. I I hope you know that you're a leader already. Fact. Having this conversation, like, people will hear this and many women.

When I got told no, when I was trying to book people on B2B Growth by Women, they were afraid to come on the show and say something that their boss or somebody that they wanted to work with in the future might interpret as them being a troublemaker. So, like, you're doing it. Yep. I look at women like, uh what's this young lady's name?

Melissa Gaglinoni. Yes, she's awesome. Yes, she's awesome. She's an AE.

I never heard of this young woman until I saw her videos in my feed. And I challenge anybody to tell that young woman she is not a leader, that she is not a trainer, she is not an expert. She's doling it out. So, Ashley, do that.

It doesn't have to be videos on LinkedIn if that's not your bag. Maybe you make, you know, PDFs, downloads, they hand them out for free. I saw that really uh succeed for uh Gabrielle Blackwell. But, um yeah, you're already a leader.

Those who don't want to elevate you to the position, right? They're just not paying close enough attention. I don't know what else to tell you. You know, but they just You're missing out.

And you have your own podcast. Like, you're doing your own podcast. Like, you're speaking out, you are taking the leadership role. Like, it's going to happen.

Like, and you're not going to have it someone's like giving it down from you from the top. Like, you're doing it yourself. So, I didn't know this was going to be therapy for me, but thank you all for the We love you. This is this this is wonderful.

You do. What you saying, Katrina? I was going to say part of why we started the podcast, Ashley, if you don't mind me sharing, is you wanted an external thing to point to to say, look, I'm interviewing all these very prominent sales leaders, entrepreneurs, BDRs, AEs, and that I can hold my own with them and give them information and talk about every aspect of sales and the sales cycle on my own show. And that even wasn't enough, which is wild.

It's crazy. I don't yeah. I mean, that's the thing about women is we don't really we can't afford to take no for an answer. And so I'm just really grateful that Katrina has been my partner in crime with a lot of things and and we are exploring the idea of entrepreneurship.

Spoiler alert because tell tell tell me more. I don't I don't know if we're ready for that. Another another another episode at a later time. I do, I want to call out Katrina though because I think you touched on this a minute ago, Dale, when you were talking about women on women crime.

And I think it's definitely a thing, but I think women who are supporting each other is becoming a little bit more common and it is just it has been instrumental in my personal and professional growth, having someone like Katrina who's in the role, who understands, who's not necessarily at my org. Because you can't that that conversation where I sobbed to Katrina, there's nobody internally I could have had that conversation with that would have I could have potentially brought someone down. And in sales, mindset is very important. So, someone being able to receive your venting, it's something we have to be very aware of cuz I don't want to bring the rest of my team down.

Having a safe person who's also a woman in sales, who can speak to me about things that are hard is I just go find someone like that because it's so important. Nikki, I feel like you and Leslie are becoming that for each other and I love to see it. And I think that's way more, I think we should talk about that more than we should talk about women on women crime because it's a thing, it happens and it sucks. But, like, the way we fight that is to support each other.

Yeah. I mean, usually what what dispels it is just for like the two women to have a conversation and learn that a lot of it was a narrative that didn't have anything to do with them. Right? So, uh for instance, Tyra Banks and Naomi Campbell, right?

Famously, uh they during the the 90s golden age of supermodels, um they they were competing against each other for no other reason than that these folks were like, we already got a black girl. Right? And so then it built this narrative out there in the world that Naomi Campbell and Tyra Banks can't stand each other. The truth though is that that was never the case.

It was never the case. It was the powers that be, right? Reinforcing this idea that they could only have one black woman. They only needed one black girl.

That was the problem. Right? So, to your point, Ashley, I would go there. I would go to the building community with women, um before I because it is it's a it's a thing, but it's a smaller problem, I think, right?

Women blocking other women. I think is a smaller problem. That's great to hear. Like, I I'm super pumped to hear that because like, that to me would be really unfortunate for all the work all the work that women are doing in B2B tech, in sales, like, getting better, doing all the things that they want to do to be successful.

And to now kind of come together and collaborate. Like, I do think moving into 24, it is a collaboration. There's a community. There are things that people need to stop they need to be more transparent.

They need to be a little bit more vulnerable with one another and make sure that we're collaborating so that we can help each other out. And concrete goals. Concrete goals. So, if if I come into this and I say, I want to help women in sales, sure.

Very different from saying, I want to help 25 women get jobs as SDRs in sales this year. Right? Now we know who we need help from. We know how much help we we need.

You know, sort of like me and Leslie, right? It's more than just saying I want to learn from women. It's like saying, where can I buy tickets to learn? I'm kidding.

But, uh That's thing, right? Quantify These efforts. You should buy tickets. I think also, Dale, like, going back to the community aspect of it, one, it's, you know, knowledge is power.

And two, there's power in numbers. And I think women have very quickly learned that when you come together and you work together and you support each other, all the shitty things you go through become much more manageable and much easier. And again, that's why we have our podcast. That's why we have our monthly meetup.

That's why Nikki and Leslie are hosting their event because it becomes much easier to open those doors together when we all put our our heads together essentially. And like you said, you have to talk about it, right? Is like, there's there's like this therapy part of it. Like, because sales can be very lonely.

Leadership can be even lonelier. Like, one of the reasons why some of the communities started existing one of the reasons why Adam and I started working together. Like, for all for all things we should be competing with each other. However, from a collaborative you know, well especially from the voice perspective, but I'm sorry, I'm better.

Um from the collaboration perspective, I think what we can do is make sure that we are helping each other out and making sure that that I I think it's so understated that just picking up the phone and having a conversation with somebody. Like, I um I met up with George Soto last night just to grab a quick bite. Like, he's such a awesome human being. But, like, you know, we just started talking and one of the things that I realized is like, I needed people I needed someone to talk to.

I didn't even know I needed to about certain things that were happening. And he was the same way. But, we just get into these patterns. Like, we're all patterns.

And how do we break these patterns? I think is the important part. It makes me think of Riley Blazedell. If if you haven't heard of him, you should definitely know him.

He he pops in and he champions as many people as he possibly can in every situation. He sees a post, somebody's saying, hey, who are the people we should follow? Hey, who's who's good in sales? And there is a significant number of women, people of color.

There are people who are underrepresented in tech on that list. And he is he is doing it's it's like Nikki said, that is free for him to do. It's free. Yeah.

But, he's But, he's highly intentional. It's highly intentional. He's building his community. I've met him in person.

He is fantastic. He's really nice. Yeah. It's it's really important to be like Riley and do like do the work.

It doesn't have to be a lot. Like if you are someone in a position of leadership where you can actually like check yourself and make sure that the candidates that are women are getting like the the fair chance. But, if you're not, like, there's ways that are free to elevate the voices that are not seen as enough. I shared uh the other day on LinkedIn.

I shared some like, what is the criteria that I go through when I'm trying to figure out like, what is this group that I'm not, you know, I I don't identify as what are they up against? What is my role in it and how can I be helpful? I can share it with y'all after if you think it would be uh a helpful resource for the for your listeners. We should put it in the show notes.

Yes, please. Yes, please. I'll put it in the show notes so you can uh pull it. So, what is if people want to make a difference, right?

So, people are listening, whether you're a male, whether you're a female and you want to make a difference. What are some top like the top one or two actions each of you ladies would recommend that people can take right now today as they're listening to this to go make a change, to go influence change. Because again, talk is cheap, thoughts are cheap. How do we fix it or start to fix it better said?

Katrina? I guess I'll I'll start. Um I mean, we we've already covered this one extensively, but I think one of the simplest way possible, if you are on some sort of social channel, LinkedIn, Twitter, just tag or elevate the voices of women, people of color, whatever it might be, any sort of minority that is posting information that might not go out to a bunch of people. Or do what Riley does.

Every time someone says like, who are the people that you love? Send that big list, repost someone's content. It's really not that difficult. It will maybe take 30 seconds to do something like that.

And I think second, something that I'm actively trying to do is I'm trying to mentor a new person every single quarter. Um whether it's a woman, um yeah, whatever, a minority of some sort. And my goal by doing that is one to help them get better of whatever their their role is. Typically, it's BDRs, AEs.

Um and two to network the shit out of them. Open as many doors as possible. Whether it's to get a new opportunity, to meet another mentor, to meet someone senior that can give them more information that I can't. But again, it doesn't take very much.

I do a couple calls a month with them. And I think like that has been the most impactful thing that I've seen so far from from anything I've done myself. I love that. I also think it's important to speak up when you are in if you're a man or a person with power, you don't have to be a man, who is in those rooms and you hear even if it doesn't affect you, anything.

You have to say something. Like, and not let it slide. I've been in the room when people said, you know, behind the doors we shouldn't hire more more women because they could get pregnant and we don't really want to deal with that. Like, nobody said anything.

Say something because I wasn't the person that could say something. I literally had a baby at the time. Like, that's probably not going to be very impactful coming from me. But the fact that they said that in front of you, like, blows my fucking mind.

No, but but it happens. Like, I one of my very first leadership jobs was a European company. And when they came over, the CEO asked at the end of the interview, When or if they were going to get pregnant. And I was like, you can't do that.

I can't believe one, I can't believe you asked that question. Secondly, like, you you shouldn't never ask that question. And third, does it really it doesn't even matter. Like, if it's the right person for the job, we'll go through the process.

And if something ends up not working out, it doesn't work. Like, I could not believe that was asked. But, you just said it, if it's the right person for the job. I I will never forget and I'm going to call her out by name.

Leah Lindsay, one of the best reps I've ever hired in a previous company, interviewed with me in person, eight months pregnant. And it was the first thing she told, I mean, she couldn't hide it. Um she hid it on the phone interviews. And when we met in person, she's like, I didn't tell you because I thought that you like wouldn't move me forward, which is very sad in and of itself that she felt that way.

Eight months pregnant. Hired her, knowing she was going to go on maternity leave for two months. Didn't care. She was the best person for the job.

And she killed the job. And that's the mindset we need to have. Well, I've been there too. It is terrifying because even if technically they're not supposed to.

Sure. Right. They don't tell you it's in their thought process. But, Anyway.

Yes. My other my other actionable thing is I think you should if you are a male leader, I think that you should intentionally seek out a list of people that you don't necessarily need to actively mentor, but that you can bring up in rooms where their career goals can align. Because I think that's the best way to do it is to get those butts in the seats. Like, let's get those women hired into the roles that they should be in.

Maybe it's someone breaking into tech. Maybe it's someone like me who wants to get into leadership. Maybe it's somebody who, you know, has a career goal and isn't in that role today. Just collect them and elevate them behind the scenes.

I can't wait to hear from Nikki, but I think there's one one woman that both Adam and I both have worked with and mentored, Sydney, and she was like amazing. I remember she was in the community I was in and we she was uh I was building up the mentorship program. And she like was like, I don't know if I want to be in sales. And she was walking through the whole process.

And I'm like, like, just give it one more opportunity. And then she went for it. And now she's an AE. She's like killing it.

She's an amazing woman in sales. And I look forward to seeing her growth through the process. But, Ashley, you you guys are talking about mentorships. And I think to me, that is the quickest way to make some of these changes super quickly.

And it's not male, woman, like, male or women, like, everyone should be mentoring as much as you can. If you've had the opportunity and the success, you should be mentoring other people. Absolutely. Nikki, two big ones.

Let's go. I know you got them. You got them. Well, but the the thing is you guys pretty much said the thing, which is, you know, I talked earlier about putting like actionable parameters around it.

And one of the things that I've been thinking about trying to do for uh for other black women who are navigating tech sales, um is it's tough to scale mentorship, right? And what has started to happen to me was I felt bad for every LinkedIn DM that I was not able to respond to. Um and so I thought about, okay, well, maybe I'll, you know, carve out just an hour of office hours a week, right? Um and, you know, invite folks.

But, again, then I'm only able to help one person a week, which if that's for you, start there. Right? Um but, to scale it, right? We've all seen things like Muffins with Morgan, right?

LinkedIn has audio events, right? I would do that with the purpose not of necessarily like talking to those women about their next career goals. But, again, we're thinking about this as a platform. So, here's how I would do it.

I would have this audio, you know, event, right? Invite as many, you know, insert um underrepresented group as possible and just listen. And then I would take that transcript. And I would pull out insights from those people and make that my content waterfall, right?

So now, on a regular basis, pick your platform. Tik Tok, LinkedIn, Twitter, whatever it is, right? Like Twitter might actually really lend itself, right? So, we're on this podcast today.

Say Ashley said something that I thought was particularly insightful. I tweet it out. I tag her. You know what I'm saying?

I I I am just featuring their voices. I am removing myself. And I am directly challenging this idea of, you know, sales expertise having a phenotype, right? Uh or sales expertise coming from, you know, one type of vest.

I think I just gave myself that idea to now. But, and then I'm so excited about it, right? Because that's for me, that's that's really how we start to get there. And, you know, I got this from uh or this occurred to me first in a conversation I had with a good friend of mine, uh Beck Holland at uh Inbound.

Yeah. Her session was fire, by the way. But, we were talking about just that. We're having a very raw conversation about how a person gets in the room.

And it came down to, right? There are those of us who decide we have to be like my mom told me, right? Twice as good, you get half as far, right? And so we lean into that.

And I think this is what most women in business are doing right now. We lean into the, all right, I just got to be way, way, way, way better. Right? And then I get into the room.

The problem that occurs to me when I start to think about that is, I'm setting other women who come up behind me to also just have to perpetuate having to be way, way, way, way better. I am sending the message like, yeah, this is a system I can work with in. I have to be twice as good to get half as far. Okay, here's my ten times as good.

No. No. So, what I'm talking about with these events and and bringing these people together is, you know, building a narrative and hopefully a library of content, right? That makes it so that that part is understood, right?

That the expertise exists is understood. Right? So that there doesn't need to be this I need to, you know, work way, way harder than everybody else. Now, working hard, we're going to do that because we're sales people.

But, we don't have to call it out, you know, in in other groups, the way we do with women just to get a foot in the door. So, I don't know, this is where my head's kind of at. We can workshop it. Yeah, like let's keep it going.

Like, let's keep this conversation going. Like, I I've been super grateful for you all joining. Like, I think we have to like just continue the conversation. Let's keep and I think measurement and movement, measurement and move.

It it's not as much as I'd like to think we're going to solve it with 52 minutes of recording, we're not. Um as much as I think we're going to solve it would like to solve it with the downloads that will come from this, we're not. Um this is an ongoing thing that needs to be talked about frequently, that needs to be addressed about often or excuse me, needs to be addressed often. Um and needs to remain top of mind.

Thank you all of y'all, ladies, for being here. You are the best of the best. Um and I think that, you know, we owe it to you uh to say thank you. We owe it to the listeners to thank them for sharing this loudly everywhere that they can.

Um and making a movement come of this and making this not just be a 50 something minute podcast episode that goes off into the oblivion, that is something that's talked about over and over and over again. Thank you all so much. Ashley and Katrina. Thank you.

Thank you. so good to see y'all. I know, we love you, Nikki. Thank you for being here.

Thanks, y'all. Thanks for providing the space.