The hiring mistakes that wreck mid-market GTM — Emir Atli, HockeyStack

Emir Atli, co-founder and CRO of HockeyStack, breaks down the massive complexities surrounding B2B marketing attribution and how revenue teams often get it wrong. He explains that disconnected tech stacks—spanning CRMs, marketing automation, websites, and data warehouses—create disjointed buyer journeys. By centralizing this data, companies can finally align attribution with actual pipeline generation rather than just vanity metrics. Beyond the product, Emir shares hard-learned lessons from HockeyStack's rapid post-YC growth. His biggest operational regret was hiring the wrong people, which cost the company six months of momentum. On the go-to-market side, he emphasizes the critical mistake of treating SMB, mid-market, and enterprise segments with the exact same sales process, noting that enterprise is a "company sport" requiring alignment across sales, marketing, and customer success. Finally, the conversation dives into controversial sales and operational takes, including why AEs should still self-source to keep their prospecting muscles sharp, the necessity of realistic lookback windows for SDR compensation, and his strong stance on the productivity and cultural benefits of in-office work for hyper-growth startups.

Discussed in this episode

How disjointed APIs across Salesforce, marketing platforms, and websites fracture the B2B buyer journey.
Why tying SDR compensation strictly to first-touch attribution creates massive misalignment and unfair pay structures.
The technological and perception-based challenges of shifting from simple first-touch models to holistic attribution.
HockeyStack's implementation of a 45 to 90-day lookback window to fairly compensate SDRs for delayed inbound conversions.
The costly mistake of treating Enterprise, Mid-market, and SMB sales motions identically during rapid scaling.
Why breaking into enterprise requires a 'company sport' mentality that shifts marketing and customer success alongside sales.
The importance of forcing AEs to self-source deals as a team activity to maintain their prospecting skills and respect for SDRs.
How mandating an in-office culture accelerates feedback loops and drives faster growth for early-stage startups.

Episode highlights

00:00 — The biggest startup mistake: hiring the wrong people
01:30 — The origin of the HockeyStack name
02:45 — Why B2B marketing attribution is broken
06:15 — Navigating attribution versus sales compensation
09:30 — GTM mistake: treating SMB and Enterprise the same
12:15 — Why enterprise sales is a company sport
15:20 — Establishing SDR compensation lookback windows
17:45 — The debate: SDRs vs Full-cycle AEs
19:30 — How to successfully force AEs to self-source
22:00 — The controversial stance on in-office vs remote work
26:15 — Rapid-fire questions and closing thoughts

Key takeaways

Centralize your data to fix disjointed buyer journeys and messy attribution.
Enterprise sales is a company sport requiring marketing, CS, and sales alignment.
Treating SMB, mid-market, and enterprise with the same GTM motion will fail.
Give SDRs a 45-90 day lookback window to credit delayed inbound conversions.
In-office work drastically tightens feedback loops necessary for hyper-growth startups.

Transcript

What's the biggest mistake we could start there. What's the biggest mistake you made from coming out of YC to now that you look back and you're like I can't believe I thought this made sense to do this. Hiring wrong people. Welcome back to another episode of the Revenue Reimagined podcast.

We have with us today Amir Atley who is the co-founder and CRO of Hockey stack, the command center for B2B revenue teams. And what I love about Amir is the way he frequently posts on LinkedIn about the old way of measuring marketing and attribution, how it doesn't work, along with all sorts of information about Hockey stack's growth in one of, quite frankly, the most transparent ways I've ever seen. Um, and recently talking about how Hockey stack killed every program that wasn't generating enough pipeline, making pipeline generation a team sport, and that you guys actually set up your first cold outbound program. So excited to dig into everything y'all are doing, the success that you've had, and just what the fuck is wrong with go-to market and how y'all are fixing it, man.

Thanks for joining the show. Of course, I'm really excited. Welcome to the show, Amir. Um, so tell the audience first like, why the name Hockey stack?

Like what was the name, what was it based off of? Why'd you call it Hockey stack? Yeah, so it's coming from the hockey stick growth uh curve. Basically, if you help companies get to that, if you're already at there, we hope you continue doing the same thing.

So, as a follow up question that on the, um, so one of the things that you guys are doing a lot is really driving revenue operations insight from like marketing attribution, what's happening with the attribution side. What why is it so difficult to figure out what attribution, where it is in the RevOps stack, like how to get a hold of that, and how are you guys looking at that from a, a challenge problem and the value you guys are adding with Hockey stack? Yeah, so, um, the biggest problem is if you think about like, we mainly work with midmarket and enterprise. So like 500 employees to thousands of employees, public companies.

So if you look at that text stack, which I'm sure you're familiar with it, there are like, there's Salesforce, there's a marketing like marketing automation platform. There are like at least four or five different advertising platforms. Um, there's a website. There's a data warehouse.

And all of these platforms are tracking couple pieces of the buyer journey. So the CRM has deal information, rep data, um, opportunities and all that. Marketing automation platform has email marketing campaigns, forms and all of that. Website has all of the website data.

Uh data warehouse if there's like a PLG company, it has trial data, or if it's like a large enterprise, they store revenue data in a data warehouse. So all of these data platforms have one piece or a couple pieces of the buyer journey. And they track that data in the way that they want. So marketing tracks email marketing campaigns in the way that they have built 10 years ago with their own API.

Salesforce has a 20-year-old API and they track it in their own way. And the website, every company has a different website with different structures. So it is really hard to bring all these data points together with all of these different APIs and tracking systems and complete the buyer journey in a way that would make sense. So what we built, um, is one single API to track all the buyer journeys and complete the picture from these different platforms and cleaning and enriching the data from different platforms in one single place.

Which another problem is every single company has messy data and they don't have time to clean the data. So we clean the data for them. Um, so that's why. And then the other part is especially as the company grows, um, especially in midmarket enterprise, what attribution means is different.

So, and then it it's changing over time. So I advise companies to look at the definition every two quarters for our customers. Um, so that you can keep people in the company. So it's like I have I have a love and hate relationship with what we're building essentially.

Um, because on one hand you help companies generate more pipeline because they know what to do. But on the other hand, it's affecting people's compensation. Because if you think about it, I'm telling people attribution doesn't mean finding a source. But if you tell reps like SDRs, for example, you need to source deals and that's going to be 60% of your compensation, it's going to be your salary, it's going to be your family's future, then you need to make sure that you compensate them fairly, which then equals being a source for a deal.

So it's like really complicated. Um, it's different from company to company. But again, one part is the technology problem. The other part is how we think about attribution as a company.

Yeah. So I've, I've never worked someplace that gets attribution right. Um, and I, I for a short time worked someplace that was trying to solve this problem, no longer exists. Um, and talking about attribution and how to properly determine, you know, where things are attributed, whether it be first touch, last touch, et cetera.

And when you look at that, typically what I've found is, you know, your marketing leaders have their opinion, your sales leaders have their opinion, right? If my salesperson spoke to them, you know, if my salesperson outbounded them, Amir, it doesn't matter how many things you've sent them, right? My salesperson should get credit for that. Um, and marketing tends to flip flop that, where, well, we started that conversation.

How in depth do you guys get with advising, you know, what it should be versus systematically let's segment it out based on the percentage of touches, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, so, uh, it's, it's different from segment to segment for enterprise. They usually come with like a predefined way of doing it. So they say like, we are compensating people based on this and we bring it in Hockey stack.

So it's like one part is compensation and the other part is generating pipeline. Usually we start from the generating pipeline piece. How can we generate more pipeline for you using the data that we already have? And then compensation piece we usually don't touch that part because they're really special for the company.

Yeah. Um, for midmarket, usually if a, if a company is smaller, um, like I don't know, four five, five hundred, six hundred employees, then there's more they usually come to us asking more of these questions and then we get more involved. Um, but like my preference would be staying away from the conversation because as you know, it's it's like what you can do well for the company, then still you can get punished for it. I think the best way is, um, literally as a manager, as a leader, you need to keep the team happy.

And to do that, you basically need to ask them do you think you're compensated fairly for marketing and sales? If there's a problem, why? And then you can get to the bottom of it. Dale, do I compensate you fairly?

No. Never does. Not enough money to put up with me on a daily basis, is there? So, so Amir, when should people really be thinking about this attribution, the RevOps, the control center?

Um, you know, what's, what's the size company? What's where does it make sense to like implement something like Hockey stack? Cause I think a lot of people are saying, yeah, this totally makes sense, but I have like 800, 800 other things that I'm trying to manage and control. What size would that be for them?

I think, uh, it depends on the lead volume. So if you have like, for example, 10 leads a month, then you can ask them where they found about you. If you have 100 leads, then you need a system. If you have a thousand leads, you need it tomorrow.

Um, so it depends on that. And then two, we mainly work with companies who have more than 200 employees, that's usually a good segment. Um, we need like a marketing ops team. So if you have a marketing ops team and like a couple platforms that you advertise on or like use for marketing and sales.

And if you have more than like 10,000 or like close to 10,000 visitors a month, then that's like a good place to start. If you're a startup, I would advise you to use just first touch and last touch using Salesforce, something like that, and spreadsheets. That would be a good way to start and you don't need to worry about attribution. I want to, uh, I want to shift gears a little bit because y'all's growth has been nothing short of amazing.

Um, you know, you started like everyone, right? You're out of YC, we have little revenue and what you guys have done is like impressive. I obviously follow all of you on LinkedIn and I love how you're building in public and being totally transparent. But like where I'd love to know like what's the biggest mistake we could start there.

What's the biggest mistake you made from coming out of YC to now that you look back and you're like, I can't believe I thought this made sense to do this. Hiring wrong people. Hiring wrong people probably wasted six months. Two people, hiring two wrong people, wasted six months of our life.

And it is such a big, so like I'm sure you know this as well, like being a leader, especially a founder, that is such a hard job and it's like it's not the hard work is not, I mean, working hard is hard. Working hard is physically hard, mentally hard, but managing people and working with people, and hiring wrong people and seeing the impact of it on a broader team and then needing to fire people, that is like mentally really hard, emotionally really draining. So I would say hiring wrong people is the biggest mistake. Other than that, go-to market side, um, I think the biggest mistake that we did in go-to market, so, our growth kind of happened unexpectedly.

So, we graduated from YC last year. Um, right after we raised a seed. Nine months after we raised a seed, series A. Series A, we didn't, we were profitable and all that.

One of our investors preempted us and it was the right time. Everything happened so fast. Some things just required more thought and we didn't have time to do that because everything was like on fire all the time and we were trying to keep up with momentum. So one biggest, one big mistake that we are trying to make better right now is two things, treating enterprise and midmarket and SMB all the same in sales process, one big mistake.

Second big mistake, uh, that we're, we have been doing the last couple months because we just started outbound is treating outbound and inbound the same. So if we dig deeper into that, enterprise SMB midmarket, we have three segments. Um, and because of this, by the way, we close SMB altogether for a couple months because we thought let's treat midmarket enterprise differently first, then we can open up SMB, which we're opening up right now again because you're at a better point. So enterprise especially six figure deals, it depends on like how we treat enterprise, how we define enterprise.

For us, it's anything after 120K. Um, in deal size. So, this, these deals require much more attention and more time, more prep, more personalization in the sales process is more stakeholders. And I've made the mistake of treating them the same and not hiring people at the right time.

And that was a really big mistake. Hope, I mean, fortunately, we were able to, um, recover from that really fast. We didn't lose a lot of deals, but we were at the point where we were starting to lose deals because of this. So if you treat SMB midmarket enterprise all the same, then you end up with a position where you don't have enough time, your reps don't have enough time to treat them differently.

And you don't have the resources to treat them differently. And one thing that I learned, this is from Mark, Mark Kosoglow, um, who was who has been my advisor from the beginning, very beginning. I spoke with him this morning. Yeah, he told me so I was, I was telling him like I want, we need to do enterprise and all that.

And he told me that enterprise is a team sport, sorry, company sport, not a team. So you cannot just change the sales process to get into enterprise. You need to change the customer success process, you need to change sales process, you need to treat them more like differently in marketing. Your literally everything needs to be different for enterprise.

So then the next next mistake was, we changed the sales process for enterprise, we didn't change anything else. Then we failed again. Then at some point, we were able to change everything at the same time. We had marketing that speaks to enterprise, we had customer success process that speaks to and handles enterprise.

Then we changed the sales process and everything fit into the criteria. And then right now we are really successful in enterprise because the product also works really well in enterprise, which is like it's more difficult to change the product than any other process. People buy from people. That's why companies who invest in meaningful connections win.

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com. Um, Amir, so as, as you're growing, like what's the next evolution inside of like attribution? What's some of the trickiest pieces that you guys are are running into? So you're going enterprise, so the product's working, I think is what gets a lot tricky when you're starting to sell an enterprise cause things start breaking a little bit.

But what are customers really struggling with when it comes to attribution today besides data in different places? Is it from the channel? Is it from direct? Like what are the challenges with this attribution that you guys are seeing?

Yeah, so, um, again like there are technological challenges and then there are like perception challenges. Technological challenges, most teams rely on first touch or last touch, which then you see two touch points in a buyer journey with hundreds of touch points. Two, most teams just rely on salesforce campaigns and most, most things are not salesforce campaigns. And then three, most teams rely on because they rely on salesforce campaigns, they're only able to see the data that sales people put into Salesforce.

And then perception challenges attribution literally means attributing something to something else, like dollars to a source, dollars to a touch point. So because of that, people think, oh it's just a way for me to justify my spend, justify my work. Well sometimes sales is reaching out and marketing's already reached out three or four times and they've opened those emails or they've, uh, taken a look at whatever you're sending in the newsletter and sales, the sales person may have just called them at the right time or sent an email at the right, right place, but really it was marketing that kind of like started that process. Like how do you connect those dots together?

Yeah, so the, do you mean like technologically or perception wise? From I think a little bit of both, from the technology side but also from the perception side. Cause they probably converge together. Yeah, from the perception side, for example, for us, for our outbound, uh, we do it based on like if you're asking about compensation and all that, we are doing based on meaningful engagement from sales.

So if there's a meaningful engagement, like I don't know, they spoke on the phone, there's an email reply or anything like that. We compensate our SDRs once the deal comes through. And we have a look back window. For example, for us, especially if you have a good brand, this happens a lot.

So an SDR speaks to a CMO on the phone, the CMO says, okay, I'm good I'm good right now. I've heard about Hockey stack. I don't have the need today, but if something comes up, I will reach out. Then the same CMO comes inbound, contacts sales on our website 45 days later.

Then we're able to see there's a meaningful engagement. They've heard about Hockey stack, but they also talked to someone on the phone for 15 minutes, then we compensate them as well because it's a look back window and we have a fairly long sales cycle. So 45 days to 90 days is a fair look back window. Um, technologically we as again, we have a one single API for all the data points, so we're able to match all the data points based on the domain.

So Hockey stack, one single account and under the buyer journey, we can see sales touch points, marketing touch points, offline touch points. And then we turn all of those data points into dashboards where you can see aggregately um, how deals or like how accounts engage with your brand. I feel like there's so many people who have don't look at it with such a holistic view. I love the look back period.

Um, I think that's something that I don't typically hear. Um, and I think that's, you know, the best way to make it fair because often times to your point, there is someone who, you know, the SDR or or full cycle AE if that's the case will reach out to and, you know, not now and then they do come back. Um, but speaking of that, so SDR or SDRs versus full cycle AEs. I know you posted about this a while ago.

Um, I think I engaged with your post. Polarizing topic. Tell me your thoughts, Amir. SDRs, full cycle AEs, which is right?

Or both? I think SDRs. Total more. That's my opinion.

Why? I, I've tried this multiple times. Whenever, I think there's like two things. One is AEs always prefer like deal engagement over self-sourcing.

Sure. Like if if I have two hours, if I can push two deals to procurement versus self-source one deal, I will choose former because I can push them and then close them and then get more money. So like there's an incentive miss alignment. And then you can also compensate them, but there's no way you can compensate for one self-sourced deal versus one close won deal.

So that is that. And then two is again just you can I think there's a balance. I think there's a, there's value in keeping reps uh focused on the deals, but also keeping their muscle like self-sourcing, sourcing deals, their muscle. Keeping that sharp is important.

I think you can do like I don't know. Every Friday, every rep will prospect for two hours and then self-source one, two deals a month. I think there's value in that. That's not super important for us because we are fortunately, our reps are like our reps have uh full calendars.

And we have a growing SDR team and then our inbound is strong too. So that's not a priority for us. But I know in six, seven months, once we grow the team, I want to bring that back. Hopefully it's not too late.

But um I want to bring that back because I think there's value in AEs seeing how hard SDRs work to bring those deals so that they treat them respectfully, all the deals. And also keeping their muscle sharp for sales. Because you never know. Yeah, it may be, it may be the size of the deals you guys are going after too.

So as you go upmarket enterprise, those deals as as you know, get longer to close, you have to negotiate. You have a lot of people in the deal cycle and so you have to be able to, um, to keep that, that top of funnel full. And I think that makes sense from an SDR perspective. I think as you go downmarket, it just depends on what the size is, what the the velocity is, um, but it's interesting because one of the things you said is as you guys are growing, like you may look at it a little bit differently to actually have more full cycle or maybe you go after a little bit more midmarket as you go downmarket a little bit, maybe those guys are full cycle.

Exactly. So, um, as we open up SMB, I think we will have that. Um, and for SMB, I have SDRs who are going to be promoted to AEs really soon, who will take over SMB. The best thing, I'm a really, really huge advocate of promoting within.

The best thing about that is an SDR if they're high performing and if they're a good AE. If any time they have a, um, block in their calendar or they have a day where there's not many meetings, they can self-source. I feel like that is such a superpower for a company where you have reps who are advocates of the company, who can self-source and you train them as an AE, then you have basically reps who can self-source and close deals and eventually in the company and happily with the company for a couple years. That is I think that's a really, really good, not a hack, but something that companies can, um, do really well.

I really like how, um, Todd from ChampFight thinks about it. We talked about this a few times. Um, and he was, he was talking about like if you give, if you like tell reps, it would be great for you to self-source your deals, you would never get self-sourced deals. Because you if you give them options, I would love for you to self-source one or two deals a month, that would be great.

Never works. If you say on Fridays if especially if you're in person or like if you're in office where you go at least once a month. If you say every Friday, we will sit down in a room and every one of us, including the manager, we will go after our top accounts and self-source deals. I feel like that is a really good culture, a winning mindset to have in your team.

Lead by example. Every single time. Lead by example. All right, last topic before we, we wrap it up.

I'm going to go with a little polarizing topic. Um, we started before we hit record. I commented, um, on the jacket. So you have very strong feelings about being in office.

Um, a lot of companies now are going back to in office. Amazon recently announced that if you don't go back to the office, you're going to be fired. Um, they said it a little nicer than that, but that's my words. Um, but a lot of tech companies and a lot of, um, individuals, whether that be, you know, workers or managers, um, are very much saying that productive work from home.

Talk to me about your views on, you know, in office and why it's how you landed on Hockey stack will be an in office company. Yeah, we started this um, in January. We prioritize in office and it it's definitely harder to make work, to make work. But I think like from a hiring perspective, you also have higher costs, leasing an office, especially in an area like San Francisco and like New York.

We are in San Francisco. Um, it's costly, it's harder to hire people because you need to locate people, you need to find people in one city. Um, it's definitely have a lot of cons, but I think one thing that I found out, which I didn't expect is if you create a culture that people want to go to the office for, then you get more out of each person. So you effectively need to hire less people so that balances off the cost of having an office.

So my highlight from September was two people that I hired recently after a couple weeks, we were out having like beers. And they said, I fucking love working at Hockey stack and going going to the office every morning because I love hanging out with you guys as like your friends and also working for the same goal. We're celebrating our wins all together. That's like one part.

And the other part is feedback loop. When we were remote, there were like every single day, I need feedback on something. Then you reach out to someone and they're in East Coast or they're not in the US. Then they're like having lunch, it's early morning for me, it's afternoon for them.

Then you wait for that. And then after that, I'm in a meeting. Then I need to wait, they need to wait for me. Then it's like six hours after that, we jump on a Zoom, talk about it for 10 minutes and we leave.

Then it's like six hours of wasted time for every single person every day that that adds up to a huge amount of time. In person, I think is the only way to keep the pace moving. And from my conversations with a lot of people, a lot of founders, especially like larger companies, like 1000, 2000 employees, especially in YC community, this is like the number one thing that I hear. Founders are trying to go back to office, but now they have 2000 employees and there's no way to bring 2000 employees back to the office.

So, I think the future is in person or hybrid. Um, and I'm a huge advocate of it. I don't know what what do you think about it? Ah, um, Dale, you want to go first or you want me to go?

Yeah, I'll, I'll go first. Um, I do I wouldn't mandate it, but I would also prioritize it. I guess that's the best way I would describe it. Um, I think you can get a lot of things done in person.

Um, and I think the, the hybrid approach probably works best for many people. Um, you know, the, the, the big office space now and like, you know, having all the the, the, the, the beer and the refrigerator and the, you know, all the the the things that go around that. I think cause distractions as well, um, instead of just like really getting to work and like actually executing on the things that you need to get done. We, we like to actually get in front with our clients so that we can actually get a lot more work done when we're in front of people versus like Zoom calls here, Zoom calls there.

So I think from a productivity perspective, you could probably get more done quicker, um, when you're together. So, I wouldn't, I wouldn't mandate it, but I'd prioritize it. Yeah. Yeah, I, I, I agree.

I think like we, we kick off every client with some in person time. We were Dale and I were actually just out a client, um, on site for the past couple days. I think if you can find great talent where you are, um, even just when like Dale and I work together, we get so much more done in person than on Zoom and even and that's even if we have meetings all day long, just being able to look over and be like, hey. But I think that certain cities like San Francisco is a very expensive city to live in, right?

Um, for the right talent, um, at the right time, I think you make that exception. Um, and still require, you know, some travel to the office and sometime in the office. And I think it's very highly dependent on the role. Um, I don't think, in my personal opinion, like an entry level SDR probably isn't going to be super successful remote without that camaraderie, that training, that that in office feeding off of one another that they need.

If you have a great sales VP that is phenomenal and could really drive your business and lives in Fargo, North Dakota, but you're convinced they're the ones, stay in Fargo, North Dakota, but you have to come to the office, you know, once a month. Um, I think it's a balance, but I, I agree with the prioritization. Yeah. And then the other thing with that is sometimes I hear from candidate, it's like, I don't know, what if I need to go to a doctor?

Or like, what if I need to run an errand? Do I need to be in office? Like, of course not. It's like I I mean, I mean everything Yeah, you're an adult.

I mean everything. Yeah, you're an adult. I feel like on LinkedIn, everything needs to be controversial to get engagement, so everything is controversial. But when I say I, I think every single company, if you want to grow fast.

Sometimes it's like, if you don't some companies don't want to grow fast. It's like sure. Uh there are other options. Some companies want to be a lifestyle business.

They want to grow 2% a month. They have a lifestyle that they can balance, which is perfectly fine. Then you can be remote. But I think my goals and if you want to grow really, really fast, which I want, then you need to be in person.

And the people that I hire want to do that as well, so they are willing to relocate. They want to come to the office to grow faster. But if that doesn't mean if you need to run an errand, if you're sick, if you need to go to a doctor, you need to come to an office. I feel like that that doesn't mean that.

So, it's more like a hybrid approach. But that's that's the catch though, right? Is you're you're treating people like adults. Like in office doesn't mean your butt is in the seat every minute from nine to five.

Like if you need to go take the dog to the vet, like do it the same you'd do it at home. Make like just get your work done, but go do what you need to do. Um, we have to trust that we're hiring adults and you're going to manage your time, but when you are working, you're going to be more productive in the office. Amir, this was uh it was insightful to learn more about your insights, Hockey stack's growth, um, all sorts of good stuff.

Before we wrap, we'd love to do some rapid fire with you. Uh, the rules are are 10 words or or less. Uh, all right, here we go. Early bird or night owl.

Early bird now. Early bird now is uh, because of kids, because of work. Um, so more than 10 words. But the problem with being in San Francisco is even if you wake up at 7:00, it's 10:00 a m.

in east eastern time. And it's even late in Europe. So you need to wake up even earlier than that to basically have some sort of time where I can deep work or work hard or do something. So I need to wake up early.

What time do you get up? Uh, 5:00 right now. You and Dale, you and Dale. Cool.

Um, if you weren't in tech, what other trade or profession would you be in? If I wasn't in tech? Yeah. I always wanted to be a professional athlete, soccer player.

Soccer. Nice. What is your favorite guilty pleasure snack? Popcorn.

Flavored or plain? What's your favorite? Oh, butter. Butter flavored.

I like it. What's your most used work emoji in Slack text, etc? Um, rocket. Rocket emoji.

All right, two more. Other than other than your phone, what's the one tech gadget you can't live without? Uh, uh, uh, uh I recently got, I don't know if it's, I mean it's probably tech. Uh I got an Eight Sleep a month ago.

I don't know if you Nice. I do know I know Eight Sleep very well. What do you think? Uh, it's I thought it was overrated, but it's it's great.

Yeah, it's uh, I I I had a chance to work with them years ago on on a project. Yeah, the best thing about it is not like sleep part. I cannot wake up, but I put on like the hottest mode and vibration. Then you need to wake up because you're sweating.

So, that is really helpful for me. Nice. Last one, let's wrap this up. Uh, dream vacation destination.

Turkey. Turkey. I'm just went. I did.

It was uh, the one word I use when people ask me how Turkey was, was magical. Um, it's one of the coolest place I've ever been to in my life. Amir, thank you so much for joining the show. We appreciate it.

We look forward to continuing to watch all of your growth, um, on the sidelines and continuing to see Hockey stack change the landscape that y'all play in, man. Thank you so much for all the support and this chat was honorable.