The DO's and DON'Ts of Go-To-Market Strategy for SaaS ft. Jenn Steele | Revenue Reimagined Ep. 029

Jenn Steele, CEO and co-founder of Sound GTM, brings her deep expertise as a former CMO, CRO, and Kiss Metrics CEO to dismantle common misconceptions about early-stage startup growth. Stepping away from the traditional 26-year-old founder narrative, Jenn sheds light on the realities of building a company as an experienced executive, highlighting why much of the standard venture capital advice completely misses the mark for mature founders. She dives into the complexities of transitioning from an executive who runs playbooks to a founder who has to build from scratch. A core theme of the episode is the stark difference between innovation and execution. Jenn stresses that building a successful go-to-market strategy requires ruthless practicality, warning against the trap of developing 'vaporware' by trying to be everything to everyone. She emphasizes the necessity of hyper-targeting a specific audience, validating product-market fit through extensive customer conversations before writing a single line of code, and understanding the critical balance between supply and demand in a marketplace. Finally, the conversation tackles the often-strained dynamic between founders and their go-to-market leaders. Jenn explains the only two valid reasons a CEO should hire an executive: to offload tasks they no longer have bandwidth for, or to bring in expertise they inherently lack. She also debunks the myth of founder-led sales predictability, reminding leaders that a CEO's email signature will always generate access that a standard Account Executive simply cannot replicate.

Discussed in this episode

• How Sound GTM transitioned from an initial concept into a dual-sided marketplace by leveraging community partnerships.
• Why standard startup advice aimed at young, first-time founders is often useless to experienced, mature executives.
• The intensive user research required to validate a product idea before a single line of code is touched.
• The two primary reasons a founder should hire an executive: to free up plate space or to bridge a critical skill gap.
• Why founders misjudge their sales team's performance by comparing AE reply rates to their own founder-led outreach.
• The complexities and frustrations of the CMO role when balancing conflicting short-term targets and long-term brand goals.
• Why focusing strictly on innovation without a concrete execution plan leaves you with a daydream rather than a company.
• The importance of narrowing focus and verticalizing early to avoid the trap of building 'vaporware'.

Episode highlights

1. 0:00 — Intro and Jenn Steele's background
2. 2:15 — The origin story of Sound GTM
3. 5:30 — Navigating startup paperwork and legal headaches
4. 7:45 — Why standard startup advice fails mature founders
5. 11:20 — Leadership evolution from executive to founder
6. 13:00 — The two actual reasons to hire an executive
7. 15:10 — The stark reality of founder-led sales metrics
8. 18:45 — Why Jenn never wants to be a CMO again
9. 23:05 — Innovation vs. Execution: Avoiding the daydream
10. 26:30 — Why you must verticalize to avoid vaporware
11. 28:15 — Balancing scale with sustainable business practices
12. 32:00 — Rapid fire questions and closing thoughts

Key takeaways

• Innovation without execution is merely a daydream.
• Hire executives to offload work or bridge skill gaps.
• Standard startup advice rarely applies to experienced founders.
• Founder titles get email replies that AEs cannot replicate.
• Avoid building vaporware by choosing a ruthless, specific focus.

Transcript

I am ruthlessly practical. Um, if all you have is innovation without execution, you have a daydream, you don't have a company. Welcome back to another episode of The Revenue Reimagined Podcast. We are so excited today.

Not because we have Dale here, but because we have someone who I consider a friend, someone who I've worked with, the amazing Jen Steele, who is the CEO and co-founder of Sound GTM. Former CEO of Kiss Metrics. She's also had held CMO and CRO roles at various different startups, bringing a great blend of sales and marketing expertise. Jen, thanks for joining us and sorry you have to put up with Dale from there.

You know I love you both equally, maybe. No. Lies. I didn't want to hear that.

That was the last thing you wanted to hear. You you held every C suite, so so it's going to be a great, uh, great episode. So the first thing we like to do when we talk to new startup founders or any startup founders is to talk about the origin story. So, give us a little background on Sound GTM.

I know it a little bit. I was like, Dale, you've been, uh, you've helped out a lot in the in the early stages, so, uh, But, uh, we'd love to, we'd love to give it like the origin story of kind of like, when you came out of Kissmetrics, your thought process around it and, and where, where Sound GTM came from. Absolutely, absolutely. And I'm going to tell the story a little bit differently because one of the stars of the story is actually on the call here.

Um, so I sold Kissmetrics at a profit in May of 2023. And, um, once I caught up slightly on sleep, uh, my primary investor from Kissmetrics said, hey, I have this platform. Do you want to take it to market as a new startup? And my first answer was no, because I wasn't interested in it at all.

And then serendipitously, um, I think it was through Revroom, we were having a conversation on, um, partnerships, but also like how partners and affiliates and what does this ecosystem look like? It's basically becoming the gig economy for sales. Um, and I had a bit of a light bulb moment, and I said, wait, what if I could actually be a major player here in the gig economy for sales and help out my friends who are dying for pipeline, and my friends who are dying for a job or a boat or something like that. And, um, and I was like, oh, but that sounds like a pain in the butt.

And then, and this is all Dale's idea. Dale is also an advisor, once I finish the paperwork to the startup. So, so full disclosure here. Uh, Dale said, what if on the sales side, we build out that side of the marketplace by partnering with communities.

And that's when my answer went from no, I don't want to take this product to market to, well, first I investigated a little bit. I talked to a bunch of CMOs. I talked to a lot of people who would be part of it, because you have to do user research. But that's when I moved from no to hell yes.

And so, it has taken longer than anyone ever wants to startup to take. Um, we we meant to launch to Alpha in December, got hit by a bunch of regression bugs. Um, but hopefully we'll be in alpha and beta and all the way to market, because of course it's a platform that was already mostly built, we just had to make some tweaks to it. Um, any day now.

So, that's uh, and I'm hoping that Dale and Adam will help me beat up the platform a little bit, give feedback, all that jazz. We we definitely will, we definitely will and it's it's an interesting story because I actually got behind the scenes a little bit and understood a little bit more on some of the investing side, some of the cap table side, like restructuring some of the pieces is is been a very interesting ride, but um I almost killed a lawyer. Yeah, it's just Yeah. I wouldn't kill a lawyer.

That one's going to be tough. Oh. Well, luckily he was in Florida and I no, he was sorry, he was in Florida. He was in in Texas and I was in Seattle.

So I wasn't I wasn't willing to get on a plane to to kill the lawyer, but now the paperwork's done, the cap tables done. I swear Dale, I'll get you that advisory agreement any moment now. And um, it's all really why why is Dale getting an advisory agreement? Like hello to your friend, Adam.

that. Adam had the idea. it was his. I haven't discounted you, Adam.

I just have I I I I don't I I I I I've yet to see a good idea. No, I'm kidding. Um, I'm just kidding. We um, we would not function without both of us.

You know, it's funny you talk about killing the lawyer and you talk about the struggle and the cap table. and I think like a lot of people and you're probably the earliest stage founder we've had on the show so far, right? Um, and I think a lot of people don't realize like they all see like once it's seed, once it's A, like, oh, we're we're we're selling product, we're talking to customers. Arguably there's revenue coming in the door.

Um, but it's super early and as, you know, you're you're starting, there's a lot of assumptions that people have of what it takes to build a startup, right? You get noise from your advisors like Dale, that's probably shit advice. You get advice from your VCs or your investors that likely could be shit advice. Um, there's the public that wants to give you some more shit advice.

What are some of these assumptions that are just like these commonly held beliefs that people are telling you, do this, do this, do this, that as you're building Sound GTM, you're like, fuck all of that. None of that matters. Yeah. Because I'm going to do this my way.

What advice did you deliberately say, absolutely not? Oh, dear heavens. There's actually a very probably all of it. Very long, not all of it.

I actually just talked to somebody who um, has given me an idea on how to fundraise more quickly so I can get into what I'm good at, which is selling product. Um, once we have one. And um, most of the startup advice out there is completely aimed at 26-year-old Stanford graduates who have coded up something that might not have product market fit. They've never taken anything to market.

They've never presented to a board. They've never worked with investors. They've never done any of this. Which means most of that advice is completely useless to me.

Someone who has been in the startup ecosystem since I joined HubSpot back in 2009. Um, someone who has sold a company as CEO. Someone who has presented to a bunch of boards. And who has specialized in go-to-market roles, not R&D roles.

So, most of the advice is like, uh-huh. Like when they just like, you need to talk to people to see if you have product market fit. Uh-huh. And You you think?

Yeah. So like, one of the very first things I did is I as I probably mentioned in my how how this came to be, um, I was like, okay, so there's this thing. There's an idea. Dale has an idea to make it a real idea.

Let me talk to as many people as I can. And so there was a Forester conference happening in Austin. There was a chief marketing officer event alongside of it. And I could get invited to the CMO event, and it was this lounge thing.

And I basically spent three days in Austin in a lounge talking to everyone about this idea. And I hadn't touched the product. I hadn't seen the product. I hadn't touched the line of code.

Not that I really want to touch a line of code. I hadn't done anything before I made sure that there was a need for this product. And of course, as time goes by, it seems like the need and the desire for both sides of this marketplace is higher and higher, which makes me more and more frustrated as I haven't launched yet. But, um, So some of the advice is good.

Go talk to customers. And some of the advice is just dumb because it's like, uh-huh. I already know how to do that. Like I've already brought products to market.

And then some of the advice, I can't execute. Um, because I'm not a 26-year-old founder. Right? Oh, you just need to bootstrap.

Um, I'm sorry. There are mortgages and things like that that were done back when I, you know, I had a salary. That it's not the same thing to be starting a startup as a grown-up as it were. So, Yeah.

Of course you guys know this, right? You're starting you started up your own I don't know, Adam's not grown up yet, so I don't know. Yeah. So I realized that Yeah, go ahead.

How was like going through all of this stuff. So if if you go back through like your CMO, CRO, CEO and now founder. How's that leadership evolution changed in that process? Like where of those evolutions from like, okay, we have marketing, we have sales.

Now I have a CEO, now I'm a CEO that needs to sell a company. But now you're kind of like at the bottom again. How was your leadership going to evolve through this this process? So, I will say that so I had the advantage that when I moved into startups and into go-to-market, I actually had already been on the executive level in a completely different industry.

Um, so granted it was the legal industry and so I had to have the poll surgically removed from my ass before I was an actual effective leader. But, um, I think for me, the most important lesson learned and the most important evolution that I came to when I became CEO is why do I have other executives anyhow? I say that all the time. Interesting.

But, but not for the reason you think. It's it's that we need So, founders hire executives and then don't do what they need to do with them. So, if I'm hiring another executive, it's to do two thing one of two things. One is, I can't I don't have room on my plate for this thing anymore.

I need someone else to own it and build it and use the strategy. Um, I'm going to use marketing as an example, because I've already I've already gotten fractional marketing help for my company. I'm a I like to think that I was a damn good marketer. But I was You're all right.

Yeah, sometimes. You you're you're you're you're you're pretty darn good at what you do. Yeah. I can run a playbook.

But, um, seriously, I was an expert messager, message yeah, I was an expert at messaging, at branding, at things like that. But when I had to do it for my own company, I was doing that and 12,000 other things at the same time and I finally put up my hand and and talked to a friend of mine who I knew understood my voice and stuff and I was like, help. So, it's something I could do, it's but it's something I had to get off my plate. The other reason for a CEO to hire an executive is because they can do something we can't.

So, there will come a point in time that I need to scale sales past my own experience and understanding. Yep. Right? Um, that's when I call you guys.

So, yep. And that's It's so interesting that evolution, right? Because it's like what you said was very interesting. Even though you had the ability, there's two things.

It's either the timing of it or you need something adjacent to. Like, I know how to do X, but if I do X plus Y, I can get there much faster. Right. And so, um, I do think that I do think going back to the original challenging the assumptions, people are telling founders to hire people just because, hey, you should go hire a head of sales.

Hey, you should go hire a head of marketing. Yet, there's no strategy put in place yet and not only does your head of sales need to build the strategy, they need to close deals and they need to get pipeline and it's like, okay, so then how does that head of sales go get that help? Right. Right.

And then there's the trust. And I I know I have lived this. I know Adam has lived this and I assume Dale has lived this where they're like, go do this. You're you can own it.

You are the CEO of your own department, whether that's sales or marketing or whatever. And then you're like, fine, this is what I'm doing. And they're like, that's the wrong way to do it. And I'm like, you've never done marketing before.

How the hell do you know that's the wrong way to do it? Well, it's not how I would do it. You're a founder. I once ran both sales and marketing at this tiny startup and my CEO was really frustrated because nobody was replying to the sales folks emails.

It was a small enough deal. We didn't have the deal size. We didn't have the BDR model. It was like a straight inside sales model.

And He's like, we'll come we'll come back to that. And um, this was also back when like, in the days that predictable revenue was a new book. So, but, um, my CEO turned to me and he's like, why can't they get their emails replied to? Everybody always replies to my email.

And I said, really, what's your title at the bottom of that email? He's like, CEO. I'm like, uh-huh. Right.

And that's exact that's exactly it. And people don't realize that and I it's it's I literally Jen, just posted about this today. Like, it's very different when you reach out to someone as a founder or as a CEO. That that whole founder-led sales motion, you get access that Bob the account executive or Dale the VP of sales or, you know, Adam the BDR doesn't get.

Yep. And and people don't necessarily realize that is that there's this transition that has to come into play. I I I want to take a step back. So, I had the pleasure of working with you not that long ago, like a few years ago.

Um, so I know like your capabilities, I know what you're good at, both on the sales side and the marketing side. You you led marketing, you probably should have led sales, but that's a whole separate conversation. That requires a few more beverages. Yeah.

A few more beverages and we we don't want to upset people today. Um, but having been a senior-level, C-level executive for multiple different companies. Like, what in the world made you say, hmm, I want to take the stability of a we'll give a range, three to $700,000 a year job depending on what stage you're at. I wish I had been in that dollar range, yeah.

Right? You were both. Seriously. To go start something on my own and take this risk and build something from the ground up that hopefully works.

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If you're looking for a proven way to win and retain more customers, visit sendoso.com. Instead of going and doing it all over again. There's the tongue in cheek answer, which is I am overeducated, I don't have kids and I have ADHD.

Um, and so what else am I doing? I like it. Um, But start a startup, why not? Truthfully, I never want to be a CMO again.

Okay. Tell me more. Or a CRO. I got I had had enough to hear with the bullshit.

I was so tired of a founder saying we need to message the company this way and I'm like, that's how you pitched it to investors. Investors are not our persona. And they'd be like, well, I know our persona better than you do. I'm like, how many have you talked to?

How many sales calls have you listened to this week? Because I listened to 12. And I'm the head of marketing. So, it's it's a dreadful role, honestly.

I mean, the head of sales is a dreadful role for a completely different set of reasons. But let me talk about head of marketing. Everyone thinks they can do it. It is the most cross-functional and wacky-ass team there, because you've got short-term deadlines, you've got long-term deadlines.

You have rev ops who's who who's very data-driven and demand gen that's very data-driven and then you have branding that's like, and now we're going to turn it pink. And they might be right. But you're managing both of these people the same time towards the same goals. It requires, honestly, that part I found fun, because again with my ADHD, I have mental I love the mental gymnastics.

But the complete lack of understanding that marketing has to do a lot of different things and that one thing that's on the founder's mind might not be the best thing for us to do. And how many times do you live that? I and I got got tired of it. And I realized there are times that I look at my dwindling bank account since we have been bootstrapping, and I say, well, maybe I should go back and be a CMO.

And then I go look at my CMO Slack and see all the pain and frustration that I have lived and I'm like, oh hell no, like, no. It is. It it's tough and and a lot of the um, a lot of the challenges that you're talking about, I think it's funny because I think a lot of the people that do start companies or the founders we do talk to, they have this sense of like, they want to change stuff. They don't really want to go back into the they don't want to report to anybody.

They want to kind of do a something that they've always jumped about doing. And it's funny because when Adam and I started Revenue Reimagined, it wasn't that either of us necessarily were looking to start a company. Um, what we decided was there's got to be a better way to help more people. And so you get into a place of like, and and at the same time a a bit about what you're saying because we're we were both leading sales teams.

It come it becomes very difficult because the founder would always pitch us like we were investors. And I'm like, hold on, time out. We're not your investors. We know what everything you're doing is broken or else you wouldn't be talking to us.

And and I think that message needs to come across to founders. Like, it's broken and it's okay. You get the right people and you talk to the right position and you're going to actually get there further much faster. So I think have some humbleness in that process and know that it's broken and know that people really do want to be there to help you.

So, Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you have to muscle through though. Like, being a founder is rough on the ego.

And so that's why and actually just like you guys, I didn't mean to found a company. It just it just so happens that like I can help a lot more people I care about with a company that uh I've founded. And so I and that's what gets me up in the morning. But that also means I don't necessarily have that ego to take me through when an idiot VC says something about, oh, I don't know if and I'm just like, will not respond, will not respond.

So, so I can't blame the founders for being very like, I'm right because it is this is hard. I'm not going to lie. You guys know it it would be would have been a little bit easier if I had started like almost consulting, um, and then built a product, but um, that's not the way I started. And and so you can't blame me that's not.

But I I think it's interesting because when founders hire you guys, and believe me, I am very excited to someday hire you guys, because actually when I was very first founding this company back in the dream stage, I was like, but I don't know if I'd rather have Adam or Dale as my head of sales. So I'm like, hey, hey. I mean, really, that's not even a question. Let's be real here.

You you want you want Dale as your head of sales, and me as your head of Rev Ops. There you go. Yeah. Now now you're thinking.

Yeah. But by the time a founder hires you, they know something's wrong. But it's how do you get around that ego that they have had to build up to survive to where they are now. That's the tough part.

Interesting perspective. Um, this question's interesting because I know a little bit behind the scenes, but, um, innovation versus, um, execution. Because there was a lot of things as you're building this product out and I know a little bit about it where you had to balance like getting to market, like getting there fast enough, yet and taking the part that you have, plus injecting the innovation, some of the things that we were discussing in the process and you were like, you're like, yes, I want to do that. But I got to get the product to market first.

How do you balance that as a founder, as you're trying to also balance the lawyer that you're looking to kill and like the marketing people you're trying to hire and all that kind of stuff. Um, and and Dale, you're right. You already know this. I am ruthlessly practical.

Um, if all you have is innovation without execution, you have a daydream. You don't have a company. I love that. And so, um, you know, I I've I've love all the ideas.

I've got more and more of a road map with ideas. Dale, I need to share with you the the most recent one. Um, and, but there have been times that and Dale can tell this to you too, um, like, Dale, you've been like, we, what about this? And I'm like, nope, not going to happen.

Outside the scope. Great idea. Go find somebody else. You you have to though, especially in the early days.

And listen, I worked for a company that wanted to be all things to all people and built what I call vaporware of like mock-up Figma screens pretending that we had it because it was like, well, if someone wants it, we'll do this. If someone wants it, we'll do this. And if one person wants it, we'll do that. And if you're not ruthless about the problem you're trying to solve, you become decent at a whole lot of shit and really good at a whole lot of nothing.

Yeah. Well, that's like I'm attacking, so, um, you know, this marketplace. I'm planning to sell to B2B SaaS companies. Probably sell initially into demand gen or whoever handles the top of the sales pipeline.

My my platform can actually support everything from newsletter sign-ups, to ad words, to closed one deals. Um, but that's not what I'm going after. And then, my beta list got so big that I'm starting to verticalize, and so I'm going to cut off certain verticals. Um, and and and it's choice after choice after choice because if I try to be all things to all people, nobody knows what I'm selling, who I'm selling it to, and why they should give me money.

Yeah. I realize I am totally preaching to the choir, because you can't sell a product if nobody knows what the product is and what they use it for. And, you know what? If this one use case doesn't work, even though it seems like a very probable use case, then we pivot.

It's part of why the company is called Sound GTM and not like go find leads or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

It's it's so funny that people don't think about the basics. And at the end of the day, it really is and Dale and I use this term a lot. You have to have the foundation first before you do anything else. And everyone wants to go off and not build the foundation and start like it's like we're going to build the skyscraper in the sky and work our way down.

Like you can't do that. My question, you and I both worked for a startup that was blessed to have a lot of money, right? 64 million dollars of memory serves me correct. Total 82.

Yes. Total 82. Who's counting? Yeah.

Oh yeah. I have never spent money like like when the CEO turned to me and said said spend $3 million in that quarter. I ran the series D playbook. We had no business running a series D playbook, but I didn't know how else to spend money.

You you spent it. I mean, Everybody knew about us for a hot second. But in in that pursuit of like that rapid growth. Like it's balancing that scale and that desire for scale versus sustainability.

So when you look at building your startup, what is your your mindset and your your your thought process for how you're going to balance the need to scale, how you want to scale, but still remain sustainable and steady, because slow and steady wins the race now, right? Or doesn't? I think managing a business like a real business and not like, and there's money for you and there's money for you and there's money for you and then oops, no money. Um, and so But, um, for me, it's what I had to get down to brass tax.

My platform is a marketplace. A marketplace lives and dies on keeping supply and demand both balanced and growing. How the hell do we do that? And so I sat down for a long time.

Thankfully, Dale had the brilliant communities idea, and Rob Genius is really all in uh, to help us with this. Um, but it's like, for me, I'm not even thinking I'm not thinking scale yet, although heaven knows I'm fundraising on it. But, um, I'm very much like, we need to get this going and we need to get the flywheel going. Because once you know how to sell, once you know you've got product market fit, and just because I got 62 companies on my beta list, yay, doesn't mean I know I have product market fit.

I mean it's 62 companies who buy into the Jen vision, that's all I know. So, Yeah. So absolutely. Listen, people buy into founders, right?

Like investors invest in great founders. We have a company now that we're working with and I can tell you like I I don't know how Dale feels, but like for me, and it's the call we were just on Dale, like the founder is what sold that to me. Like he is so infectious and so personable and like loves this product. And it's like, I I can get behind you if you're selling paper clips, dude, like you're awesome.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think part of the reason so many marketers are like, yes, put me on the beta list is because they're like, we know you have lived our pipeline problem and we know that you're going to do your damndest to fix it. Yeah.

100%. It's so true. Yeah. So, But, yeah.

That doesn't necessarily tell you much about scale. Except that I will also say, um, having worked at Kissmetrics where we did not have venture funding, and I had to manage the cash, let's just say that I don't think I'm ever going to forget those lessons, so they will stay with me for a long, long time. Exactly. Well, you've been on both sides of it, so I think you can take a bit of everything and then you can kind of blend it together.

So, at Revenue Reimagined, we enjoy giving back as much as we enjoy receiving. So, um, one of the things that we like to do is our guests love and you're a GTM geek as you self-proclaim. So provide the audience with uh, what you'd like to to give. Um, I I'm so passionate about helping people with their go-to-market.

Um, especially if you've got founders out there who um, and I'm not going to take your business, trust me. But, um, who are just like, what do we even do? Like how do we even figure this out? Or somebody or even or if you're a CMO that's like, how do I convince my my CEO of X, Y or Z?

It's like, I'd love to sit down with you for an hour and see if we can talk it through and work it out. It's a really fun hour for me and hopefully useful for you. Love that. I love that.

I love it. Adam, sign off. Listen, I I I have to put up with you and balance your ideas. So I can take all the GTM help I uh, I can get.

You know, I'll talk to you anytime, Adam. So, I I I love it. I feel like we haven't spoken in forever and like we could sit here and chat for the next hour. I had Foa the other night for dinner and thought of that.

Yeah. Um, but I I I think we've covered a lot of really good stuff today for people again who are early in that founding journey. Um, or even those who are late who like are doing a reset or a reboot or just taking some time to reflect. As we wrap up, I want to I want to dive into a a little bit of rapid fire.

The rules here are 10 10 words or less. Otherwise, Dale hits the gong or the gong comes along the side and hits Dale, depending on which kind of mood we're in, preferably the latter of the two. Okay. Um, all right.

Here we go. If you're you cannot be in tech anymore in any way, shape or form, what profession are you going to be in starting tomorrow morning? Marketing consulting. To non-tech.

Too close. Fine. I'm just going to No sales, no marketing, no tech. Like you have to be like a chef or something.

I mean, no, be a chef, but you know what I mean. I crochet. Oh, no, no, no. Okay.

Nope. I'm going to be a som. Who am I kidding? A som.

I like it. All right. I like it. I like it.

Okay, so this is perfect for you. Where do you start first? Sales or marketing? Yes.

Great answer. They're the same damn thing at first. Who are you selling to? I'm sorry, I'm going to blow up the the 10 words.

Never mind. No, go for it, go for it. Who are you selling to? How do you have to talk to them?

Where are they? Where do you have to be? Love it. Love it.

Jen, what is other other than your iPhone or Android? No, we don't use Androids on this podcast. Other than your iPhone, what's the one tech gadget you can't live without? Probably my Bose Bluetooth sports headphones, because I'm in them constantly.

They record half decently. And even though Bose can't figure out how to make things connect correctly for Bluetooth, I'm again failing the 10 words, where's the gong? Um, there you go. Early bird or night owl?

Early bird. I like it. And I have to talk to you guys on the East Coast all the time. Yeah, that's true.

Yeah. I mean, listen, absolutely. What's the song that gets you in the zone for work? Um, Fall Out Boy, the the light him up, up, up or The Distance by Cake.

My my daughter's a big Fall Out Boy fan, so she'll like this one. Okay, last one. Dream vacation destination. Oh, we want to go to Italy, um, specifically Northern Italy.

Ah. Thought you were going to say the Amalfi Coast. That too. All of it.

All of it. But North Northern Italy is great. Having done both, Lake Como, I think is much better than the Amalfi Coast. You you don't get near the traffic and it's it's just a whole different experience.

Yeah. And very different wines up there. Yes. I'm so grateful.

Yes. Tuscany, Florence. Yes. Um, it's it's incredible.

I am so grateful that you came and chatted it up with us for half an hour. I am grateful that it was half an hour I didn't have to spend alone with Dale. You dropped a ton of knowledge. Where can people find you?

Where can people find information about your startup? Sure. Um, easiest place to find me is on LinkedIn. That's linkedin.

com/in/jensteele j n n s t e e l e. And my startup has a non-ghastly website finally, and that's its soundgtm.com. Go check it out.

Jen, thanks so much. It was a pleasure. Thank you, Jen. Thanks so much.

So much fun to talk to you guys. Thank you so much.