Slow is smooth, smooth is fast — Mac Reddin on building Commsor as a VC-backed founder

Mac Reddin, CEO of Commsor, joins the Revenue Reimagined podcast to share his unorthodox journey from bootstrapping Minecraft communities to running a highly visible VC-backed B2B startup. He dives deep into the pitfalls of abandoning what makes your company unique just to follow standard SaaS playbooks, emphasizing how prematurely adopting traditional sales motions (like hiring a VP of Sales and a BDR team) misaligned with Commsor's core ethos of community-led growth. A major highlight of the conversation is Mac's concept of the 'SLC' (Simple, Lovable, Complete) product framework as a counter to the traditional MVP, advocating for launching products that, while simple, provide a complete and enjoyable user experience. He also openly discusses the psychological toll of being a founder, balancing the pressure of hyper-growth with sustainable scaling, and learning to delegate by hiring smart people and getting completely out of their way.

Discussed in this episode

The origin of Commsor starting as a weekend no-code hackathon project before evolving into a VC-backed business.
Why companies do not own a single community, but are actually made up of overlapping networks.
The dangerous trap of imposter syndrome causing founders to follow standard VC playbooks instead of their unique vision.
The crucial mistake of hiring a VP of Sales too early and expecting Series B maturity from an early-stage team.
How the concept of SLC (Simple, Lovable, Complete) offers a more customer-centric alternative to building an MVP.
Why the 'slow is smooth, and smooth is fast' mentality is vital for building a foundationally sustainable business.
The extreme emotional volatility of being a startup founder, likened to a ping-pong ball thrown into a cement box.
The evolution of startup leadership from acting as a one-man army to intentionally delegating and collaborating.

Episode highlights

0:00 — Welcome to Revenue Reimagined
2:10 — Mac Reddin's founder origin story
5:15 — Transitioning from bootstrapped to VC-backed realities
8:30 — The trap of the generic SaaS playbook
11:45 — The mistake of hiring a VP of Sales too early
14:20 — Why slow is smooth, and smooth is fast
17:10 — MVP versus the SLC (Simple, Lovable, Complete) framework
20:45 — The harsh reality of a startup founder's mental health

Key takeaways

Abandon the generic B2B SaaS playbook to protect unique value.
Build products that are simple, lovable, and complete (SLC).
Don't hire a VP of Sales before establishing true maturity.
Sustainable scaling requires a solid foundation: slow is smooth.
Hire smart people and ruthlessly get out of their way.

Transcript

also like, you know, everyone knows MVP, but have you heard SLC before? SLC. So MVP, right? Minimum viable product.

SLC is sort of like a counter MVP and it stands for simple, lovable, complete. So instead of trying to pull the minimum viable product, you should build the simplest, most complete thing that could be lovable by an end customer. Welcome back to another episode of The Revenue Reimagined podcast. We are so thrilled uh to be joined by the very first founder who is joining this show.

And that is by design and we'll get into that a little bit later, why we chose Mac to be the very first founder. But with us today is Mac Redden, the CEO of Comsore, who has coined the term that you're now seeing all over the place and I'm looking at it on my LinkedIn screen. Go to network. Mac, welcome to the show, man.

Thanks. Thanks for having me. Yeah, super pumped to have you. the first one.

We got our we got our Dino hoodies on. So representing representing the crew. Um, as we're reimagining revenue and just this whole go to market is like completely uh changing. One of the things that I always like to talk to founders about is their origin story.

Like what's that emotional connection? Like, what made you start the company? What drives that passion so that the the audience can feel like why you started this this company. Oh, man.

There's like nine different ways I can answer that question, even though I feel like I've answered that question a million times cuz it's always like the classic question every founder gets, but every BC company, right? Mac, tell me what your origin story is, man. Why did you do this? Why did you do this?

tell us your background. Like tell us about yourself. Not a background. I I could care less than that.

I I'm really curious. The the emotional connection on why you built it. So, I have been a founder since I was 17. I've basically never had a normal job.

Um minus one stint where I sold a company and worked for like six months for a British company I sold it to and I hated it and I was a terrible employee and never went back. And that's that's a whole rabbit hole for another time. Um I'm I'm jotting it down. All I knew They make fun that I take notes.

They've all had like they've all had some element of community to them. So my first business was actually built on top of Minecraft, the video game. It had a huge community element to it and I'm going over like the super spark notes version right now. Um so I used to joke that I was like, I've been a community builder for 15 years, unintentionally for six years and intentionally for six, seven, however many years.

Okay. Um Cuz it wasn't until I exited that first Minecraft business and stepped back. I was like, okay, you know, I've been a bootstraper. I've worn like, you know, eight million hats as a founder here and I I realized one, the power of community and how it had impacted our business, and two, the community building aspect had been kind of a hat I had enjoyed wearing the most of all the hats.

So that started me shifting into this community intentional world. Um and Comsore and that's where the CO in the name comes from, started as a community-led growth company. So we were sort of at like the the tip of the spear on this community-led growth movement, you know, two, three, four years ago when we started. So for me, emotionally, I mean, it actually started as an accident.

Um Product Hunt had a no-code hackathon. You had two days to build a prototype of a product without using any code. You had to use only no-code tools. So Comsore was comm sponsor originally, which is where you can see where the shortened name came from.

Um No intention of being a business. I was just having fun hacking away for a weekend. Kept hacking away on it weekend after weekend. Suddenly started making money and long story short, it became this community-led growth tool and then I guess even longer story, even shorter, that evolved into Go-to Network when we realized that the original idea of helping communities or helping companies measure their community was misguided because companies don't have a community.

They might have a community that's owned by a community team. They might have a community you point to and you're like, that's their community on Slack or here or wherever. But in reality, companies are made up of lots of different overlapping networks. Hence, Go-to Network and where that all came from.

Um So a lot of it was kind of I don't know if it's like an intentional emotional connection as much as it's just like it's I've always been like building things that I enjoyed and building for myself and I'm a builder by trade. I'm a generalist. I can do a little bit of coding, a little bit of selling, a little bit of design, um Cool. a little bit of everything, but you know, I'm not a master of any one thing.

And uh Yeah, I always say like if if Comsore shut down tomorrow, I would probably start another company. And if that one shut down, I'd start another one because I just I like building things and sometimes they've been side projects. Sometimes they've turned into huge venture-backed companies, usually somewhere in the middle, but I love that. And it just just kind of happened.

I love that. Serial entrepreneur. So and and those are the best kind, right? You you are the entrepreneur that heads of sales will line up to work with, um, because you've done it before and you've done it successfully.

You know, when we're coaching folks, often times the first piece of advice is if you could find a multiple time founder, you have a much better chance of success than with a first-time founder. No offense to any first-time founders listening, but it's very hard being that head of sales with a first-time founder who hasn't gone through that before. I always feel like I'm kind of both, weirdly because this is my first time being VC-backed, which brings a different It's a whole different world, right? Yeah, it's a different, it's a different set of building blocks, right?

So like Yeah. And and I'm happy to talk about that later, but we we've made the mistake of hiring the VP of sales too early when we didn't need one and we've done the classic VC-backed, over-funded sales mistakes. Um So like there's a weird mix of like, yes, I've run companies before, but like also a lot of times they were small teams, bootstrapped, you know, the biggest company before Comsore for me was 14 people. Mm And how many are you up to at Comsore?

Uh, we're 18, 19 now. Okay. So we're already scaling it. So, Mac, you you've done quite a few startups.

And when you're building a startup, especially a VC-backed startup, there's a shit ton of like common like best practices or assumptions or things that like you should do, right? Like I'm I'm sure you've had that board member who's been like, Mac, you really need to do this because I've seen it work at my 17 prior companies, only of one of which has been successful. Um What are some of the ones that you've just kind of thrown out the window, um or that you've challenged to really like help drive that growth? To an extent, all of them.

I love it. Um In in general, I actually so so interestingly enough, because I didn't come from like a traditional, work at a startup, start a company like it the the background is very untraditional, I think, for a multiple time founder. Um I think Comsore was successful early on because we weren't following a playbook. We were just like, we were just kind of I don't know, leading more by vibes instead of data if that makes sense for, you know, I know that make a lot of people cringe or be upset be like, how dare you ignore the data?

They're like, no. As Dale and I tell everyone, every decision has to be backed by data. I think it does, but also when you're early, there is no data. So you have to kind of like, there's a trade-off, like you kind of just have to like wing it on a wing and a prayer and some gut feeling.

Um and that got Comsore to a point where VCs threw a bunch of money at us. And then once we raised a crazy pre-emptive Series B, because we're like the poster child for fundraising in 2020, 2021, 2022 when it was like, if you had a heartbeat, people would throw money at you, which is not the way it works anymore, as any founder who's fundraising right now knows. Um But once you raise this Series B, this like imposter syndrome set in with me where I was like, okay, I'm a Series B CEO now. There's all this pressure, we got a board.

I've never done this. Okay, now I have to start following the playbook. And I'm not saying that's the only reason, but like it definitely contributed, it almost killed us. Like this pressure of too much money, follow the playbook.

Like the thing that made Comsore unique got almost like washed away. Um And I didn't notice it cuz it happened slowly, right? It's not something that happens overnight. It it you know, it took it took a year post-Series B for me to wake up one day and be like, wait, like this is I'm not being the founder I want to be.

I'm not being the CEO I want to be. I'm not building the company that I set out to build. I've like, I'm following other people's playbooks on how to build companies for the last 10 years. And objectively, if you look at how companies been built over the last 10 years, they haven't fucking worked.

So like, why would you follow that playbook? Like, I saw a stat the other day that was looking at like, it was like what percent of uh tech companies who've gone public in the last decade have been profitable for more than two quarters in a row? And it was like, What's the answer? What's the astonishingly low answer?

Or it was like 4% of them. It was like none of them. Like objectively none of them. So like all these playbooks on how to build the next Uber, how to build this.

It's like it didn't work. So why are we following that playbook? 100%. Yeah.

And you mentioned something in particular. So you hired a VP of sales based on this playbook and probably the pressure from the board and Yeah. like we have the money, we gotta spend it. Build a team, grow, grow, grow.

So what was the what was the biggest challenge you saw, not from a personal perspective, but was it a, you know, why did that not jive and why and what are your recommendations to founders getting into that situation? So, we definitely, it was it was definitely like investor and board and just kind of like, you know, process pressure, if you will. It's like, oh, we need to have a, you know, the founder can't be doing sales if you're a Series B company. I mean, we also had the problem like we were a pre-emptive Series B company, so like we had the money of a Series B company, but we weren't actually a Series B company by stage or maturity, which is a whole separate type of tension.

Um But yeah, I it was it was pressure from the board and I think the mistake was we kind of hired for like pedigree. Like, ooh, this guy's been the the sales leader and the sales director and the VP at this company and ooh, they've done the good stuff and you know, this investor personally recommended them and da da da da. And not from like a personal reason, but I mean, the disconnect was they were expecting a Series B company with Series B maturity, which we weren't. So they were expecting to like, you know, sit in their ivory tower and like dictate and manage, whereas like we actually needed someone who was gonna like get in the trenches and like help with that transition from founder-led sales to actually building a team and I know that's something that is near and dear to both of your hearts, the transition from founder-led sales.

Um So I think we like we jumped the gun a bit. We went we went like too far ahead of what we actually needed. Um And then What was the biggest challenge? Was it like, you didn't have the process documented?

You were like, he was trying to doc or he was trying to We we just weren't mature enough. And I think there was a little bit of like, I was stubborn and bullheaded on like, no, this is how we do things and he was stubborn and bullheaded like like neither of us wanted to like come down and up to meet in the middle, um, which was which was problematic. I also think fundamentally we were building a B2B software company. But our whole premise was that like there was a different way to sell.

Like community-led growth was our whole thing. But then VCs were like, yeah, but if you're gonna sell the companies, you need the BDR team. You need the BDR manager. You need the VP of sales.

So suddenly we were trying to like force a square peg into a round hole of like we were trying to we like had hired a sales team to run a process that was fundamentally not aligned with the very product we were building. You're like, that's not even our ethos. Like our ethos is to like do it via network. Like Yeah, that's not that's not what we're selling to our customers.

So why are we selling that way? Like wait a second. Like this is But like you get caught up in like the imposter like, okay, well we've raised all this money. I've never done it.

So I'm gonna listen to other people because I don't know better. Yeah. Yeah. And and hence why like it's better to have a second, third time founder because you've already gone through that problem and you like you would probably at this point push back on the VCs and the venture people be like, look at Oh yeah, absolutely.

So, double-click on that for me. So, you talk about being the poster child for just raising money, right? Like, and those days are long gone. Um and kudos to you for being able to raise and hopefully turn it into an amazing company, but it's harder than ever now to raise money.

Now, you raised in that environment, the environment's changed and you have to kind of balance the need for scale with the need for sustainability, responsibility as Dale and I talk about. How do you manage that balance? Like, that's a tightrope to walk, right? I don't know if there is a balance.

There is no scale without sustainability anymore. Right? I think that's the whole reason why the tech giants the last 10 years have objectively like not been like, great, you made $10 billion. You lost 20.

Right. You you spent you spent 54 but you made 10. Like like we work, right? As a great example of like, yeah, they they hit the scale game out of the park.

Doesn't matter. It it objectively doesn't matter. So I think it's I always think of, I don't know who said it first, but I always heard it from my dad. My dad used to race cars for a living and he used to always say, um, slow is smooth and smooth is fast.

And I think there's a lot of that that can apply to building and scaling a company where it's like sustainable is like if you build it sustainably, then you can scale it sustainably. If you just go for scale and you skip over the things that actually make it foundationally worth scaling. Like scaling for scaling's sake is not a long-term good thing. Yeah.

And and I think that's where you get the pressure from the investors as well, right? They're like, I gave you money. You have to invest it in scale. But you don't know where to scale because you haven't built the foundation.

So building that foundational element is one of the more important things as you go through that process. Yeah, and there could be an interesting, you know, give or take cuz some VCs would rather have you just like throw the money at the wall and if it works, great. If it doesn't, they don't care. They got 72 other eggs in the basket, right?

Right. Whereas like, when you're a founder and you're like, this is the thing and I'm gonna do this for the next 10 years, like, I can't just throw all the eggs at the wall in one go and just be like, well, I'll try again. I mean, actually, I guess, yeah, once again, we work. I guess you can do that.

But, um, I don't know. It's just not the way I I. And would you would you like now that you've gone through the VC pieces and you've you've um started trying to do the scaling and all this other building. I would assume that you'd be more selective in the VCs or PE firms or whoever's investing in the company because you need someone that's gonna be in the same like mindset, philosophy, ecosystem that you're thinking about because you don't want to get stuck in this process.

How how would you go about that? Would you interview them differently, ask different questions? Ever feel like keeping your CRM updated with call notes is a nightmare? You're not alone.

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Visit www.attention.tech. I mean, we're very lucky that because there was so much interest and money was throwing around like crazy back then.

We had a lot of options to pick from when it came to which VCs. So we've we've gotten very like, we have great VCs for the most part, you know, I will not say anything else beyond. Um, but uh, for the most part we have great VCs who are not overly like pressuring or like pulling the we're gonna remove you, you know, whatever kind of card. Um they believe in the the thing we believe in and the way we're gonna do it.

Um, I think some of them are actually relieved, frankly, that we're doing because like once again, they invested based on the way we were doing it. Then we raised a shit ton of money and we like changed. And then it's like, but that's not the company they invested in. Like we became we basically for for a whole year post our B, we were basically just like insert other SAS company.

Right. We're like the same. Like yeah, our product might have been different than yours, but like our process was the same. We were checking the same boxes as everyone.

There was your messaging the same. Like you're in like everyone's top of the month. Yeah, it just like. Yeah.

And now I'd like now my messaging is do you want a fun fact about dinosaurs? Like, what Series B CEO does that? That's awesome. It's uh, I love my dinosaur hoodie.

It's it's super soft. So you guys have pivoted a little bit, right? Like the product has changed. Um, it's not the the first product that probably VCs invested in.

It's not probably maybe even the second product. When you look at balancing kind of innovation and changing the product versus like this perfection when it comes to execution. Talk to me a little bit about how your mind works and how your team works with that balance of like, is it innovation? Is it execution or where where in the middle does it go?

It's definitely somewhere in the middle. I I think I sometimes sit on both extremes of that too much at the same time as, you know, paradoxical as that might be. Um I'm I think I'm I'm I'm sometimes very good at identifying a new idea or a new opportunity, but like, you know, shiny object syndrome can definitely be a terrible thing. Yeah.

Um It's like I have a great COO now who like manages that. Uh Cuz I definitely am like the ping-pong ball who's like, ooh, what about this thing? Oh, what about this? Whatever.

Um You you are the dog in the movie Up. Yep. But at the same time, I'm also like, nothing's ever good enough. So like there is that perfectionist of like, like we've had things like like our our new product launched six weeks earlier than we were planning on launching it.

Or like I guess more than I was planning on launching it because it wasn't ready yet, it wasn't ready yet. Um And our team was like, let's just like we're never you're never gonna know until you put it out there. Um There was like a great quote, I can't remember who said it, but like if you um, you know, if you're not embarrassed of your first launch, you launched too late. Yeah.

I think it's a YC quote, but there's another like, you ever heard the old Patton quote of no plan survives contact with the enemy. I've always loved, we use the version internally, no plan survives contact with the customer. So you can you can plan and build and document and plan and plan and plan until you put it out there and you talk to customers, you put it in their hands and you iterate, you're never really gonna know. Um so I think we try to strike a balance, like an iterative balance between those two.

Like I would say my mindset is never never say no to at least looking what's behind a door of innovation because especially in today's day and age, the market changes so quickly, you don't want to be left behind and just because you spent six months on one thing, doesn't mean that's the thing you should do for the next six months, sunk cost and all that. At the same time, don't get over indexed on the thing you're doing and over-perfecting it, like get it out there, find out, iterate, test again. So, I mean like with one of our products right now, because we have two, we're also like not following traditional startup advice by that measure. Um we're basically building like four different things in the product right now.

And we're putting all four out there at once and then it's like, okay, which of these one or two or three are the things we should go deep on. Um and and then worry about perfection there. I'm so glad you said that. We we're actually talking to a founder and an investor today and this exact conversation came up.

It was like, do we sell before it's perfect? And in perfect's eyes, it's perfect to the developer. And I I used to code, right? So I used to be a developer.

And I it was the same thing, like, you don't want to put something out, it's almost like you put your name on it and you're afraid that it's not gonna be good enough, but we never know what good enough is until you actually put it out on the market and the market gives you feedback. good enough doesn't exist. Like, it's like perfection doesn't exist, right? It's like a never-ending bar.

Like, the good enough doesn't exist. And the market never loses, right? The market's always right. Whether whether you think it's right or not is a totally different story.

But the market's always gonna tell you. They're gonna tell you how much you're gonna pay for it. They're gonna tell you what features and functionality you like, even though you can direct them. But they they never lose.

So, There's also like, you know, everyone knows MVP, but have you heard SLC before? SLC. So MVP, right? Minimum viable product.

I am. Simple, lovable, complete. jotting that down and that'll find its way to a future LinkedIn post. Um yeah.

Beat you to it tomorrow. I love it. Yeah, I I I've I've actually I've never heard that term. Yeah, I like it.

But it makes sense. Being being a founder's hard, right? Like I think that's something Dale and I have realized, um, over the past six months, you know, as we try to build out Revenue Reimagined. There's great days.

There's struggle days. There's days where you love your co-founder. There's days where Dale wants to strangle me. More of those days, right?

Then Probably probably. Yeah. I thought that conversation was going to go a completely different direction, but. Um but it's hard.

How do you deal with all of the pressure, all of the stress, all of the people coming at you from a million different directions who want to tell you do this, do that, no, stop doing this. Like, how have you found that balance as a founder? The honest answer is I'm not entirely sure I have. Okay.

Um but I um someone told me once, I can't remember who said it originally, but I heard it from someone this idea that being a founder is like chewing glass and getting addicted to the taste of your own blood. And that's like a it's a very gruesome way to put it, but there are definitely days where that feels true. Um and my response to that is, I am definitely addicted to the taste of my own blood. In that analogy, it's um yeah, it has updates, it has down days.

It's, you know, people say it's a roller coaster, but I think it's more like a ping-pong ball thrown into a cement box. Cuz a roller coaster, yeah, it's up and down, but you can tell, it's predictable. A ping-pong ball is like, you have no idea. Up, down, left, right, sideways, like you'll wake up one day and you're like, this is the best day ever.

By lunchtime, you're like, it's the worst day ever. By the end of the day, you're like, it's the best day ever. And you're like, what happened? So true.

It's like, and that will happen six times in one day. So true. Um So I think for me, one, I think I used to be terrible at doing anything outside of work. I was like a literally my like between the ages of 20 and 27, I worked.

That's what I did. I worked on my startups 24/7. I that that's the only thing I did. Um and that was okay.

I learned a lot, but I think I've gotten better at dealing with the stress by having other outlets, whether it's like going and playing badminton with the same group every Sunday or like I've found cooking to become like a very cathartic thing for me of like, step away from the screen, do something with your hands, make something, the smells. It's like a it's like an, you know, it's like a you know, a sensory like relaxation in a way. Um so I think you have to find these things that can create those moments of calmness for you because you can't really do it in the work. So you have to find places around it and outside of it.

Um yeah. But I don't know. It's I have days where I I have weeks, even months where I'm like, I got this. I'm a great founder.

I know what I'm doing. I got a system. And then I'll have whole months where I'm like, I have no idea what I'm doing. I'm barely staying above water every day.

And it and I I don't know. I have not figured something out yet that I can look at and be like, oh, I've done this for three years and for three years it's worked perfectly. Mm. So jumping off the back of that, I always I always find it fascinating on leadership evolution because like where you start isn't where you are or where you're probably gonna be.

So, how do you think your leadership style has evolved from like, you know, the time that you started the company to like growing through all the pains that you've gone through and where you are now? Oh, there's I mean that could be an hour-long conversation in itself. Um trying to think of what would be the most like concise way to I I think when I started Comsore, I was very much like one-man army was my mindset. Right.

Like, you know, if I if you want it done right, do it yourself. Uh and I think that comes with, you know, I think a lot of the startups I've run in the past, it was like me or maybe a few people. It was like, you know, there wasn't really a team. It was Right.

with the exception of one company, like solopreneur type stuff. We're like it is literally one-man army. Like you are marketing, you are sales, you are product, you are design, you are development, you are everything in one. Um I think early on, I I definitely struggled with delegation.

Um and I think there were definitely moments where and probably still a little bit where, you know, I'd have moments like, well, it makes sense in my head. Like, Adam, why doesn't it make sense to you? Like, it makes sense here. So like, what's I'm like, oh, I'm like doing a shit job of explaining this.

Like, that's that's on me. Um I would say my I mean, I can like I think I posted it on LinkedIn the other week, but like there's like a letter, I don't know if you saw it that I that like it's like the first page in our handbook. It's like a letter from Mac. Welcome to the company.

Um and I'm sure yeah, I just want to like almost like pull it up right now and just like read the first part of it because I think it like that sums up me as a leader better than I'm gonna. It's like ask permission, play it safe, learn to compromise. You shouldn't make your logo a dinosaur. It's impossible to build a high-functioning team without an office.

CEOs shouldn't swear. It's not professional. It's against the rules. Fuck the rules.

That's like the first thing you read on your first day uh at Comsore. Um Wow. And I think I don't know. I I you know, beyond that, I would sum it up as, I want to hire smart people and get out of their way.

And I tell everyone that starts, if you if you say you're gonna get something done on Friday and you realize Thursday you got to put an extra hour or two in to get it done on Friday, I expect that to be done. But also, if you say you're gonna get it on Friday and you get it done on Thursday and you want to take Friday off, Great. Right. Love that.

So be it. So there's like an element of like hire smart people, let people own their own destiny. Um try not to micromanage. I am definitely still kind of bad at that because I'm a very opinionated person who kind of because I'm a generalist, like because I could do your job, I'm gonna have opinions about it, which can always be challenging too.

I would I would sum it up too from like you've kind of gone from like a one-man army to a collaborative uh collaborative approach. Trying to. I think there are still room to be do that even more. But I would say that's the theme over the last four years.

That's that's our theme for 24, our theme for 24 is collaboration. Like there's so many people do what we do or like want to do what we do. And like our philosophy into 24 is like collaborate with as many of them as possible where you'd see most people that are in this space being like, you're a competitor. Yeah.

Rising tide and all that. Uh, so, yes, very much so. Uh, but collaboration's important, right? Like, and I agree with Dale.

I think some of our best conversations we've had are from people who arguably would have been competitors. Like, it's funny. So, as we started this podcast, Scott Lees texted me. Um and I know you know Scott.

And like Scott and us very much play in the same space. Doesn't mean we can't talk. Doesn't mean we can't be friends. Um there's so much it's like it goes back to Dale and I's origin story, right?

We had by most people's definition, like, we had no business speaking to one another. We were competitors and we shouldn't have spoken. Um but I think when you look at collaboration a lot, um a lot of things can happen. Mac, when you look at five years from now, you know, everything's changing.

AI is supposedly gonna change the world. You can now make your little Mac bot, you know, you could probably hack that out over a weekend and have a little Mac bot. You're probably doing it already. Um where do you see Comsore going?

Like where where where what's the change gonna be? I'm trying to think of how much I should share versus how much I should like neuter my answer. Because I have the answer that I would share internally to that question. The like, you know, rah rah motivation, you know, David versus Goliath take on the man answer.

Um I'm gonna start with more like maybe where I see the world and then where I see Comsore. So I think yes, AI, automation, the world's changing very quickly. I think one of two things are gonna happen. There's kind of the dystopian version in my mind and then there's the there's there's one version where I'm like, doesn't matter what I do.

The world's gonna go one way and I can't affect it. And then there's part of me that thinks I don't know. I I think I don't think we're gonna end up with this like AI-led, you know, AI talking to AI world. We will for some stuff, but I just I think people are gonna want the humanity back.

Um like we saw people reacted to like, yes, everyone built virtual events and stuff during COVID, but as soon as there was a chance to get together in person again, it was like, please give me that. And AI will have its place, but I think AI will be like good CGI. Good AI, you won't even notice it's AI. Whereas like, you only notice it when it's bad.

Um I do think over the next two or three years, there is going to be a reckoning in software that like not the lay-offs of the last year, but like a when people talked about sales advice, they always skip over like, is the product worth selling? Right. And, you know, we've had 10 years of like, you could have an okay product, you put a good sales team behind it like, yeah, you'll scale the $10 million ARR pretty quickly. Um and I don't think we've quite come face-to-face with this realization that like we might actually have a contraction in the software and tech space before we have expansion again.

Um That being said, um where Comsore is going, I mean, I'm trying to I'm trying to think of like the non-aggressive way to say this. Um I will say uh uh okay. There are a number of categories of business that I would like to make a dent in putting out of business. I love that.

I like it. I I think I know where you're going as well, but we'll we'll see how this plays out. I figure also like, I don't know. There's there's a there's a line that I maybe like shouldn't just like say yet, but Yeah.

I love it. There there is a lot of crap that I don't think the world needs. And and I think we're all on the same page. Like we've we're all in that swirl of crap that is what we're what we believe needs to change.

Like it it's ripe for changing and we need it to change. Um Okay, Mac. So, I Revenue Reimagined, we believe in uh giving more than we receive. So, you were so gracious to give.

What do you want to give to the audience? Uh, I'd love to give my my time for a founder or two or or three or four, depends on how many people are are interested. Um to to someone who's about to or has just started their founder journey. Um I've done this a lot in a lot of different ways and a lot of different markets.

Uh over the last 10 years and I've uh made the mistake of not seeking out advice and help and guidance early on in my journey pretty much every single time, even though I seem like I have not learned from those mistakes. So, um I've been in that spot where talking to someone who's a few steps ahead would have been helpful. Um So yeah, if there's a founder or a soon-to-be founder who's looking just for a sounding board, advice, thoughts. Um I will just say I probably can't help you with fundraising advice because when we fundraised, the rules didn't exist.

Um like we fundraised without a pitch deck. Can't really do that these days. Um unless you're like a crazy high growth AI company, but uh yeah, that's that would be my my give. Awesome.

That's a pretty awesome gift. Like, there there's I love it. Not often are you gonna get a founder who a successful founder, um who's done it multiple times to like share your insights. So we'll have to make sure to pick someone super special.

And if there's more than one, for that. That's fine too. We're gonna get some comments or something going on the Yeah. Absolutely.

Mac, before we uh before we wrap it up, are you uh you game for a little bit of rapid fire? Yeah, let's do it. All right, 10 words or less or Dale hits the gong button. If you weren't in tech, what profession would you be in?

Farmer or running a tea shop? Wow. Interesting. Cool.

So, the big question everyone always thinks about, what's more important or what do you start first, marketing or sales? I I think they should be the same thing at the early stage. Love that. You said you uh found an outlet in cooking.

What's your favorite dish to cook? Uh, something I haven't cooked yet specifically. So I love I love specifically having to go like, I love looking up a weird ingredient like, you need this weird specific pepper from Thailand that like, I'm like, now I gotta go find a place to get that. And then So I love I love doing that.

I love also like specifically, that's not 10 answers. 10 words, but yeah, there we go. No, awesome. What's the first app you check when you wake up?

Uh, Slack. Unfortunately. Most most most unusual item on your desk right now. A sneak peek at our next merch item.

Ooh. Ooh, I like it. Wow. Very cool.

You got kids like you. Last one. I love it. Last one.

Um, what's your dream vacation destination? Uh, an A-frame cabin in the middle of the woods with no internet and no people for 100 miles. Nice. For how long?

Ever. Two weeks. I was like, yeah. Like, if it's a vacation, so like it has to have an end, but two weeks.

Awesome. Super cool. Mac, this has been an absolute pleasure, man. I cannot thank you enough on behalf of both Dale and I, uh for coming and hanging out with us, chatting all things, the founder's journey.

Where can folks find you? Uh, lots of places. Uh, on LinkedIn. Where should folks find you?

On LinkedIn. I guess unless you don't agree with my takes on sales, process being bad, then don't look for me. BDRs. Uh and uh yeah, other than that, I don't know.

Wherever your nearest dinosaur is, you'll probably find me nearby. I don't know. I have a terrible answer. I love it.

Mac, thanks so much for joining. I'll get that out. That's fine. Leave it in.

People like the awkward, not fully put together side of me, so like, plug it, right? There you go. I love it. Thank you, Mac.

Appreciate it, man. Cheers. Likewise.