He Speaks to AI More Than Humans...

Outbound sales has evolved from basic persona-based list building and superficial signal-based triggers to a new era where hyper-targeted data points define the message. Fractional GTM Engineer Jordan Crawford argues that the traditional horizontal SaaS playbook—going a mile wide and an inch deep—is failing. Instead, teams must focus on narrow segments where their knowledge compounds, allowing them to craft highly specific, relevant outreach based on public or proprietary data. The core of Crawford's methodology is creating "a message someone would pay to receive." This requires abandoning generic tools like ZoomInfo categories and instead actively finding the exact criteria that define an ideal customer profile. By defining a tight segment and uncovering specific data points (like a restaurant's menu prices across delivery apps or a home's listing description mentioning a new roof), the outreach message essentially writes itself. To get started, sellers should interview their best customers to uncover nuanced use cases, then leverage AI agents to identify companies that match those highly specific profiles. By moving away from broad filtering and focusing on deep, actionable insights, sales teams can build an outbound engine that cuts through the noise and delivers undeniable value.

Discussed in this episode

• The evolution of outbound from basic persona-based lists to AI tools doing superficial personalization.
• Why horizontal SaaS companies struggle with outbound because their messaging becomes diluted across too many industries.
• How targeting hyper-specific criteria, like delivery app pricing disparities, allows vertical SaaS to dominate outbound.
• The importance of defining a tight segment and finding public data so that the outreach message writes itself.
• How an AI agent can scan a company's website to identify nuanced buying triggers like a focus on FedRAMP certification.
• The concept of crafting an outbound message that contains so much actionable insight a prospect would literally pay to receive it.
• Why sales teams should 'find, not filter' accounts by identifying bespoke registries instead of relying on broad database categories.
• The value of interviewing top customers to discover specific, compoundable insights that dictate highly effective new GTM segments.

Episode highlights

1. 0:00 — Intro and guest background
2. 2:15 — The three versions of outbound sales
3. 5:30 — Why horizontal SaaS companies struggle
4. 7:45 — Kyle Norton's restaurant targeting strategy
5. 11:00 — Segment, data, and message synergy
6. 14:20 — Finding the right buying persona
7. 18:00 — Scraping specific website nuances with AI agents
8. 21:10 — Crafting a message you'd pay to receive
9. 24:30 — Find vs. filter: The flood restoration example
10. 28:15 — How to get started with customer interviews
11. 32:00 — Building a GTM experimentation engine

Key takeaways

• Go an inch wide and a mile deep.
• Craft messages your prospect would pay to receive.
• Let your segment and data automatically write your message.
• Find exact data points rather than filtering broad categories.
• Interview top customers for hyper-specific buying triggers.

Transcript

Let's face it, y'all. Hiring sales talent is a real pain in the ass. Getting A players is key to bridging your go-to market gap, but it's harder than ever. If you're not actively engaging passive talent, you don't stand a damn chance.

That's why at Revenue Reimagined, we trust our partners at pursuit to help our clients find the best talent fast. If you're looking to strengthen your sales team, go check them out at pursuit sales solutions.com. Welcome back to another episode of the Bridge the Gap podcast.

We are actually, well, two of us are on location, so forgive the background as we travel in a lovely Hyatt Regency Hotel. Uh, but we have Jordan Crawford with us today, who is a fractional GTM engineer. That is a new up-and-coming term. We are going to talk about a clay advisor since 2020 before Clay was cool, when we thought Clay was like the shit that you molded together.

He's the founder of Blueprint GTM and admittedly talks to AI more than he talks to humans. Jordan, thanks for being here, man. Yeah, thanks so much. And that's a that's a stat I like to loudly proclaim, but I'm very embarrassed about.

Hey, Jordan, appreciate you joining the pod. Um, it's funny. I remember talking to you probably two years ago, even before Revenue Reimagined, you and I were just jabbing on prospecting, getting, you know, contacts, these things called signals that were kind of cool back in the day. Um, talk to talk to the audience a little bit about the evolution of where you came from, like two years ago, when it was like find signals, go through the process, to what's evolving today and and why this this shift is important from an outbound perspective.

Yeah, yeah, it's a great question. Well, let's it's really important to talk about where we came from. And I also want to make a promise. I'm going to make a promise that you're going to get 100% of what you paid for to listen to this podcast today.

Um, I will even double your money. Um, so, so come to me specifically and say, I want to I want a 2X refund. Um, but we're actually at the end of this conversation, you will get some prompts of mine, some process. Uh, so you'll get some value out of listening to this.

We won't just talk about, you know, what I think about a dog or whatever. Um, so it's like I came from Apple. Um, so, so really let's talk about where we came from because it's really important to understand where we came from to know where we need to go. And so really the way that, and I'm going to talk about sort of the sort of v.

1, v.2, and then no one has a really good line of sight on v.3, but I'm going to describe what that looks like. So, version one is essentially get a list of accounts, Zoom info, Apollo, whatever.

You write persona level messaging, right? CROs need blah blah blah. Then, uh, you find the you find the persona, then you say to your SDRs, personalize this, like send them, and by the way, you send your 21-year-old SDRs to write to 50 50-year-old CROs. And of course, they know everything about CROs, so they're going to be like, Jordan, you wear a white hoodie, I wear a white hoodie.

We basically hang out in the same golf clubs. What's up, bro? Yeah, what's up? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, it's like, I know you love White Claw. Um, and so, or, you know, the the best version of this is like, go Notre Dame hoof cats or whatever. I don't know, I'm not a sports person, but um, but it's like, now that you've heard about how I know about Notre Dame hoof cats, like, let me tell you about my B2B SAS tool. Um, and then you scale, right?

And so the V2. version of this are people inserting themselves in that same workflow. So instead of accounts, we have signals. It's like, who's hiring?

Or who's changed their website or whatever, right? It's about a change in the world. But the problem is that the more success those signal platforms have, the worse it is for you. And at the very end of the day, that is still, I saw you.

Hey, Dale, I saw that you became the CRO. Isn't it great that you care about pipeline now? Uh, my company does CRO lead selling, dude. Like Yes, so bad.

Hi, because you're a CEO, you must struggle from this. Yeah, yeah. And so you can see that all these lead gen agencies are doing it's just the worst. Um, so that's like kind of where one group of v2.

0 products is evolving. The other sort of v2.0 products are SDRs to personalize. And these are the AI SDRs that you see where, so they don't give a shit about the accounts that you go after, right?

So it's like, and your account selection is probably garbage in the first place because this is a quote, we shape our tools and thereafter our tools shape us. Well, how do you get accounts? Well, you get accounts at Zoom info and Apollo. That's where you get accounts from.

That's the only way to get accounts. Um, and so you're trapped into this world where you have to filter the world. You have to say, okay, well, why is this relevant to, uh, this person? And you actually don't know because, you know, as we said earlier, that the list is the message because you didn't define the list and it's even with AI, you can't filter your way out of this problem because you're saying to AI, hey, take all of these possible companies from or, you know, this random list and tell me why they're related to us.

So, um, so that's kind of the world in which we live in and why these new products are actually selling us the same false bill of goods. Uh, and I have a better way to do it, but I'm going to pause there to give you guys a chance to, uh, to like flesh out the current way if, uh, if you like to say anything more. So, the list, I I think this is, I agree, this is what people get wrong, right? And what I see and what we see over and over and over again, Jordan, is all right, we sell revenue architecture software to B2B SAS companies to help them forecast.

Let's load every B2B SAS company, every VP of Rev Ops, every CRO in our sequence, send them all the same message that maybe slightly different based on the job title. Um, and tell them that we could solve their forecasting problems. Um, and we wonder why it doesn't work. Yeah.

You, you talk to a lot more folks than we do, but are you still seeing folks that are like this belatedly wrong about it? Or have we started to see change? And then I'd love to, like you said, get about like, what the hell do we do differently? Because this is not going to work.

And if you think it does, you got bigger issues. Well, I mean, some of this is the pool in which you swim in and a lot of people are swimming in acidic pools because of the nature of their company, that they can't they did not choose to do that, you know, a bunch of two-year-olds got in that pool and started pissing. Um, and so, um, uh, and and these are B2B horizontal SAS companies. And the the reason that they have the hardest challenge here is that they are a mile wide than an inch deep.

And so, uh, they are basically selling against competitors who are an inch wide and a mile deep. And so this is sort of, uh, uh, classic Crossing the Chasm. But really, you can't say anything great to to, if you have five personas and six use cases and seven industries, you actually don't have anything interesting to say to any of them. The best thing that you can do is lead with a message about you.

And a customer will never see themselves in a message about you. They will see themselves in a message about them. And so let's talk about a specific counter example of this and why this company can do it. So, Kyle Norton, is a good friend of mine.

C R O of owner Love Kyle. love yep, we've spoken to him a couple times. Incredible human. Yeah, he's he's a great.

I mean, he's he's Canadian, so he he got he had a cheat code there. Uh, you know, I think gosh darn is the worst curse word he's ever said. Um, and so, so Kyle he sells to restaurant owners. His CEO didn't say, restaurant owners and by the way, mining companies and by the way, uh, Crest and like it's restaurants, right?

Well, and so Kyle's already started in a better place, which is great. Now, what do he has to do is his knowledge can compound, not fracture. Now, if he starts learning things about restaurants and plumbing companies, his knowledge fractures. And then from plumbing companies, if he focuses on Hvac companies, his knowledge continues to fracture.

It doesn't compound. But restaurants, his knowledge compounds. So, one of the things that they do is they help reduce fees for door dash and Uber Eats. And so, um, so it turns out that he has public data.

He can identify a segment, which is, so in this new world, we start with a segment. And so, for for Kyle, that segment is restaurants that have higher prices on door dash and Uber Eats. Okay? So, so now we have a segment.

That's the first piece. It's it's restaurants that are listed on door dash and Uber Eats. Now we need to find the data. So, fortunately, in this case, the data's public.

So we have now we have an understanding of their menu prices on their website and door dash and Uber Eats. So a segment is usually two to five really specific things about your ideal customer profile. Uh, about a a sub section of your ideal customer profile. So now we have data and a segment, the first two, segment data.

The nice thing is these two things together define the message. So Kyle can send a message because he's compiled that data. Adam, your pad thai is $52 on Uber Eats. It is, uh, $43 on door dash.

On your menu, it's 12.55. My guess is that one of the reasons that you're doing that is to cover the fees that they charge you. Um, and, uh, but did you know that we have found that if you remove yourself from those platforms, we can, uh, those customers will still order and here is the data that proves it because it turns out they have loyalty to your pad thai, not to Travis at Uber or whatever, uh, uh, whoever, I don't forget the who the CEO is now.

great guy. Um, but now Kyle may not send a message like that, but you get an idea of that's possible now. So the segment, the data and the message, then the accounts are easy, the people are easy from there, and you can scale that. So if Kyle wants to do something else here, he can define another segment.

And that means that he can orchestrate this whole thing programmatically. I I by the way, this is not from insider information. I'm just from the. I I I I used to sell the restaurant space.

Um, I know Kyle. I know Adam Gid. I know that whole team super well. You're you're spot on.

And your talk track is perfect. Yeah. So, so, um, yeah, but I mean, I I know that they partner with like Uber Eats and Door Dash, so they're not very aggressive messaging here. But, but you get so you get an idea of that define the segment, the segment then will, uh, give you the data, uh, then you can find the data.

The data plus the segment is the message. That'll define the accounts, and then you can scale that segment by segment. But this is about going an inch wide and a mile deep. Uh, and then replicating that.

So if you're a horizontal SAS, you have to do something that is really hard for CROs to do. You have to focus. And it's the right thing for the company, and it's the wrong thing for your job. Because you're going to go to the CRO to the CEO and say, we're going to only focus on this segment.

He's like, but we have thousands of different why would you focus just on one? And if that segment fails, their person they're going to get fired. Um, but it's the right thing to do to build this engine. And this is why this is so much easier to do with vertical SAS companies because they don't have to make that fundamental choice.

So, I I I I can't wait to see what Dale comes back with on this one because I think I think you lost him with that level of intelligence. No, no, no. I I I I'm like sick burn, Jesus. Dale was, come on.

Dale was ironing his shirts before this podcast. I mean that's a high bar. You're in a hoodie. I don't think you got a right to say that to a guy who he was, but I I I have to say it and I'm going to say it every episode because I can.

I got lambasted because someone doesn't know us and they're like, you have to stop beating up on Dale so much. I don't beat up on Dale. This is our dynamic. We give each other crap.

Like it's not personal, y'all. It's who we are. He tells me I'm the EA all the time. All right, all right, Dale.

Take a shot. Dale. Go ahead. Take a shot, Dale.

Yeah. Yeah, and not taking a shot. Um, but one of the things that I was thinking about as you were as you were saying a lot of this and it it actually comes back to one of your first comments. People actually don't know what their real ICP is.

Yeah. And so you can do all of this work behind the scenes afterwards and they're using an ICP from 2000, you know, from five years ago, even three years ago. Um, we're working with some clients right now and you go back through it and even going through these iterations, it's taking three, four months to really narrow in and focus in because it's like, I want a especially when you go on horizontal, I want something this big and it's like, well, why don't you get really good at this thing? And then once you get really good at this thing, then you can expand out and leveraging what you were just saying from like a really niche messaging, like really targeted value prop.

There's two things that that we see a lot. The ideal customer profile and buying persona are off or they're just not good. And they there's no real true value that they're delivering. Like, I am the best, you know, I I can generate the best ABC for you.

And it's like everybody else in the market says that. So you just become noise. So, I'm curious as you talk to people through your process, how do you help them through the really targeting the right people at the right, you know, because that's where it all starts. It's people buy from people.

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If you're looking for a proven way to win and retain more customers, visit sendoso.com. It's a great question. And I think about this by basically, if you interview the person that has had a conversation with the most number of customers, you don't even have to do all this ICP stuff.

They know it. It's about getting it out of them. And it's about getting it out of them and and um letting go of how we determine that account. So, for example, I had a conversation with a company that sells into they they sell security questionnaires.

So if you are defining if you're doing sock two or whatever, you have to answer 300 questions. And one of their unique benefits relative to the market is like, we know that these are accurate. And all these other AI platforms, this is just a feature of theirs. And by the way, it gets things wrong.

And for this thing, you can't get it wrong. Like because you don't you don't have any savings. If you have to look at every line about what the AI did, you don't have any savings. What does it even mean?

And he said something really interesting to me. He said, when I said, well, who do you focus on? It's actually people that recognize like everyone and their mother that security. Yeah, that is who.

People that can say when I said, we believe in this. We're Fed ramp certified because that opens up a new market to us. We're not Fed ramp certified because one customer came to us and you can't just like, fill it out. They're just gonna They're like, no, we are going to go to market.

You know, no one is the choice of SAS corporations is thing they stand for in these things so that people can buy. imagine that you weren't limited by Zoom Info's categories. Imagine that you had a tool, I don't know. Let's call it a text generation tool where you can put it information and that text generation tool, let's call it chat.

And just for let's just throw some random letters. Let's call it chat GPT. Uh, these things together mean that you can send an AI agent out to a website and say, yo, go look at their website. Do they blog about this?

Is it feature prominently on the homepage? Is it in the pricing page? Is it's like, proudly Fed ramp certified. Do they have a government section on their website?

Is there is their CRO come in and he said, our key strategy this year is to sell into the government or to sell into blah blah blah. And an AI agent can tell that. Well, now you can imagine people that their organization is revolved around selling into, uh, other, uh, organizations that are like, security is our number one actual concern. And by the way, if you sell to the defense department, they're going to think about sock two differently than Salesforce, right?

The defense department is like, no, no, no, no. We're going to by the way, the liability is on you. So if China breaks into this thing, you're going to jail. Uh, and that's like a much different thing.

It's like Salesforce like, well, you know, we're going to be upset, but there's a breach every now and again, you know, like that's just a different thing if it doesn't make it to the contract. So that would be an example of how you can find the segment. And we didn't I didn't do a bunch of it. And I I said to the guy, how many customer conversations?

He said 600. Um, and I do want to talk about a message someone to pay to receive. I can do this for me because I've I've done enough work here. This is harder to get to a message that someone would pay to receive, which is a different sort of bar here.

Um, I was selling to I love I love that term though. Like think about it. We we all get a shit ton of messages every day. How few would I be like, holy holy crap, Jordan, like I I would pay you to send this to me because you're going to solve a real problem and I want to talk to you now.

Yeah, exactly. And by the way, uh, the I should get the dates right. Um, later in San Francisco, I'm going to be doing this live, uh, at a Clay Club, San Francisco, so I should I should pump that event. Uh, which that's that's going to be Tuesday, February 25th, 6:00 to 9:00 p.

m. I hope you can make it. And then, um, we're going to do this whole process end to end Thursday, March 6th at 5:30 p.m.

in the Presidio of San Francisco, uh, Cannonball go to market. So we're going to like go to market in an hour from a company. But but let me give you an an example of a message someone to pay to receive. We were going after roofing companies.

And, uh, when we went after roofing companies, we wanted to be able to, um, sell them on a data set that is recently sold homes, uh, and the owners of those information that actually need new roofs. And so I could send a message that says Adam, did you see that 123 Main Street just sold recently? Inside of the listing description, it mentioned a $10,000 credit for a new roof. Uh, this is just a mile away from you.

Here is the realtor's contact information. I don't know the homeowner personally, but you might want to go door knock on them. If this level of insight is something that's interesting to you, I have about 300 other homes in your area that specifically mentioned roofing credits, uh, for their just sold homes. Would you like it?

It's like, I've given you an actual home where where money is actually allocated that is actually near you. I've given you the realtor's contact information and that slayed. People were like, what like they were all like, why why did you do this? Like this is And, you know, in some cases, people even assume the value.

They're like, well, we only do shingle work and so it's they did respond to me and they actually gave me another insight which is like, oh, the type of roof matters. So that's another filtering criteria, which is like, okay, well, if they don't have shingles, don't do, you know, filter out those people. Um, but that's a message that someone actually paid to receive. And it I think you posted about that on LinkedIn, because I I remember something very similar to this, but that is real data, right?

Like if you holy shit, if you can do that for me, and you're giving me value in the message. Like, here, go chase this one if you want to. For free, have fun. Um, I would pay to receive that.

If you could email in our business is different, right? But like if you could email me and be like, hey, this person is actively looking for help with their go to market. We have validated it. We know they're willing to spend money on it.

This is real, go call them and I could do this 30 times over, I would pay for that message all day long. Yeah, yeah. And this this this works in B2B SAS too. You just have to be a little bit more creative.

Um, so I've done things in the past where I used to sell um, jobs data, which is just like jobs intelligence. And so one of the things that we did is we used an AI agent to for the company we're looking at, we found their competitors. Then we queried our own data set to find who um, had a historical job description that mentioned one of those tools and where we thought they were coming up on an expiration date. So I could say, Adam, uh, from my research, X Y or Z are competitors of yours.

And we did some additional filtering. We think that these five companies and these five people are these companies are about to expire their your one of your top competitors. Here's why we think that and here is both the the phone number and uh mobile email of the decision makers at those companies for you to run a rip and replace. Is this I hope this is useful to you.

I don't even need I don't need a crazy call to action, right? It's like, the call to action is the data and that's a message that you would pay to receive. Right. Yeah, and I think that's that's very interesting.

Like the call to action is the data. Like if your data is good and you're you're driving value, it is the data. Um, one place I've been thinking as you've been talking is we get into a place of we've wanted all this data so that we can create, you know, personalized messaging and all this other kind of stuff. Now it's almost like we need to have what you're calling the filter to the data because it's like there's so much noise out there that what data do you trust?

What data should you be using? What data? And I think it goes back to defining ICP and value prop. Like it all goes back to the 101 basics.

But how do people go from so much data, like they're filtering in all this data, to like getting to like the exact data we should be using when we're sending this this information out. This is a great question and you need to find, not filter the world. So let me give you an example, and this is a huge thing. It's like, you can't start with a list of accounts from Zoom info.

You just can't do it. Uh, in most cases. So let's talk about find versus filter. So I was helping a company that sells to flood restoration companies, which is kind of, you know, so should be so specific, right?

Well, it turns out Yeah, little needs. Yeah, super niche. So, it turns out when you search for these people on Google Maps, that it comes out with people that do all sorts of things. Like it's actually Google Maps' categorization, which is usually pretty good, was not good in this case.

So I asked them a bunch of questions, like what do they have in common? It's like, well, you know, this is regulated work, which is you can't come in and say I remove mold from your house because that is a health hazard. So you have to be regulated. It turns out by the IIRC, which is just a body that maybe I got the name wrong, but there is a regulation body that has to approve this.

And on their website, they have a list of all this exact IIRC certified companies that we could scrape. And so now you can imagine, I know for sure that you are a flood restoration company. That means that I already have something to say to you. I know that you're a flood restoration company.

Now, in their case, they're they're, you know, there's not many people that sell software into this niche. And so the the bar for their message is much, much lower than you and I, which, you know, we have to be like, here's a here's a $100,000. Please take my meeting. Um, but in that case, it's like, you're clearly certified.

Uh, uh, you have to respond immediately and, you know, so they could exist with literally just personal level messaging because the fact that there was software in the industry is like, oh my gosh, we're so far behind. We don't have that. Um, but in that case, where we started was we scraped this list of bespoke companies that was already compiled and filtered and because there was an actual standardized body on the web that said, X Y or Z. And that's where it usually is.

It's usually in a um, a place of the web where someone's already done this extensive work to filter and structure that information for you. I love that. I I think that's I I think the the find and not filter is like exactly the right thing. It's not always easy.

Um, it's not easy, but I think if you want to succeed, this is the only way to do it. So, Jordan, I think the other question, how do people get started? Like, how how do you get started doing this so that your outbound matters? Yeah, I think um, I'm going to give a Donald Rumsfeld quote.

It's like, there are no knowns. There are known unknowns and there are unknown unknowns. And that's the kind of problem here. I think he just said that to justify the Iraq war, but it was actually a good idea.

Um, it's like what? I don't understand that. It's like exactly, gotta go. Um, uh, the it's the unknown unknowns that people have a lot of problems with.

And so the very best place to start is just have a conversation with customers where your knowledge compounds, not fractures. So what is the the like use case, persona, industry where you can have conversations two, three, four of your brightest customers and let they will guide the way. And they're going to say things that you would never expect them to say. And if you don't lead with like, how was our product awesome, etcetera, you're going to ask questions like, what else did you evaluate?

Like, why do you think? You know, I don't and you want to like throw pretty controversial statements. I don't think our product is really the best in the market, like, do you agree? Um, no, no, it is.

And having them defend that, um, or like, you know, most people think X Y or Z, but some people think A B or C. What's your take? So really getting them to elicit, you know, they've spent their whole lives, uh, getting to the place where they're about to where they buy your software. So they have all of this understanding that you don't.

And you need to understand that and you need to listen for it. And so, uh, uh, a perfect example of this. I just did a build an AI agent in an hour webinar. And they were going there's a we were we did this for a company that sells mining like mining data.

I said, and I and I used chat GPT and chat GPT's like blah blah blah blah. And I asked one question to the person that knows the account and I said, well, where are you like a 10x better than your competitors? And it's like, well, rural mines, like that are specifically for precious metals. I'm like, who who the hell needs that?

And it's like, well, it turns out that there are cases where these it's like uh uh PE traders. And they're making decisions based on the price of metal in these rural mines. And that's where they have just like hourly data. And so you can send it because you know that, you can send a message that's like, Adam, um, these five mines in rural Nebraska, the price in the last uh hour spiked by 3,400%.

This data is not going to hit the market for another day or two. Um, this is probably relevant to you because I see that you recently have been making a lot of commodity trades on uh uh copper mines in rural Nebraska. This is just one data point. Would getting this data every day change how you invest your money?

Like that's a message that someone would pay to receive. Um, now, where how else would you do this, right? Like, well, if you tried to go after all PE firms that trade in metals, you wouldn't know what to say. But if you really get down to what is your huge differentiator, where uh, and then how do your customers see that huge differentiator?

Those two things together are usually enough for you to build a segment, but you have to have conviction of that. And then the how is a different question and this is where the AI agents can come in line. But but start backwards. Start with what is the best message that you could receive you could send by hand from if you could spend Adam, if you could spend unlimited amount of time researching on the web and writing one message to one customer, what is a message that you would write that they would pay to receive?

And then you can reverse backwards into how you turn that into a system. Yeah. It's not easy. And and there and there you have it, y'all.

It's it's that simple. Exactly. I'm trying to build I so I am selling I am building a second course, which is who to target and what to say to try to help people with prompts to get them there. Um, what is the process to uh to get you there.

And I really believe a process over prompts. It's like one of my core convictions. And uh specifically as you interact with with AI that uh you are the guide, not the river. Um, and so you need to have insights on your customers to be able to help guide these large language models to say this is exactly what I'm looking for.

And then they will perform beautifully for you. But you have to have a nuanced understanding with customers. You have to spend a lot of time listening to them. Um, and so, anyways, my my upcoming course, it'll be about $1,000.

Um, and I'll I'm going to try to teach people how to do this. Um, and it's hard to get it out of my head in a structured way. But that's what that's what I'm working on. Yeah, that that that I could definitely could definitely see.

All right, Jordan, it's uh, we are at 30 minutes, but we're going to go a couple minutes early. A couple minutes late. Let's dive into some rapid fire. Yeah, go.

Go for it. Early bird or night owl? Uh, night owl, hands down. 100% of the time.

And if you weren't in tech, what other trade or profession would you be in? Uh, I would be, uh, I would actually run the lemonade stand, uh, at on the Italian coast. Uh, my friend Anthony runs it. It's called Lemon Point.

Um, and he gets to talk with, uh, like tourists all day long and be like an authentic Italian. And he charges half of the price at when you're at the bottom of the, you know, of the mountain. Um, and, uh, and he's not trying to make he's not trying to make a dollar, but he has a beautiful life, I think. That's awesome.

I love that. What's your favorite guilty pleasure snack? Oh, fuck. Um, like a cheeseburger.

So, a cheeseburger or like a smash burger? Because they are different things. Oh, um, I think gun to my head, in and out would probably be the the the. Yes, I do.

I I'm in Dallas now. We both live in Florida. I will not leave here without stopping in and out. Yeah, yeah, in and out is just the greatest.

Um, I think this would be interesting to you. What's one of your favorite book or podcast that you listen to, um, that the audience should should listen to? The Bridge the Gap podcast, Dale. Come on.

Um, well, I um, I really like AI Explained on YouTube. And, uh, he like actually goes and reads the first party research and, uh, translates it. And and he's got an English accent, which is also quite wonderful. Um, and so I really, really enjoy, uh, um, yeah, I really enjoy that.

I also kind of this is not really related to revenue, but I love the Ezra Klein podcast. Um, uh, and I and I have a every once in a while, I'll listen to a good This American Life because I really like the way that Ira Glass, uh, will make a nothing burger into a story. You ever know that time when you wake up in the morning and you like pull your sheets off? This is a story about waking up.

You know, it's like, wait, what? Like so, I just I love how he can turn anything into like a really, really beautiful story and, um, I think that that is like a skill that every marketer should have. What um, what's the first app you check when you wake up? And I'm super curious on this because you're not like a revenue leader.

So I'm curious what the first app you check is when you pick up your phone. Um, well, at at night, it's always the calendar to see what I have to do in the morning. Um, Uh, you know, it's not as good for podcast, but I play a game. Like I'll I'll distract myself.

I've been really into like Last War and it's just it's mindless. It's just like tapping away because a lot of the things that I do are is like so, so, so focused work and I feel that I have to like mindlessly do mindless things when I'm done with this. Um, so it's not it's not it's the truth, unfortunately. I I wish I could say it was like, oh, something better than that.

But but probably the podcast app is just. Last one as we wrap up. Dream vacation destination. It could be Italy, but Well, I mean, I just I just worked from Italy for a month.

And I I really have to say that like Chinque Terre is like one of my favorite places. I I you get to walk. People are impassioned about food. No one has a job there, which is like kind of amazing.

And so I sort of I sort of love that. San Francisco is the place that I will be until I retire, but then I think I'm going to swing the other way and it's like, well, what are you doing today? It's like, apper all spritz, baby, like nothing else. Uh, so I think I'm going to go really hard at this, uh, and then eventually I'll end up on the Italian coast.

There you go. Awesome. Jordan, I appreciate you joining, man. So much knowledge.

I I would love to pick your brain privately. Um, and learn learn all sorts of stuff. I think that every one of our clients, forget our clients. Everyone who's running a go to market motion suffers these problems.

And if you don't put the time, effort, and money, um, into solving it, you are not going to survive in modern day go to market. The day that you the days of doing things, um, the way we did them are no longer working. Nothing changes if nothing changes. Uh, if you don't take anything away from this podcast other than that, take away everything that Jordan has said on, you need a message that someone is willing to pay for.

That should be your goal. When you build outbound, when you hit that send button, would someone pay for this? Yes. Jordan, where can where can where can people find you, man?

Well, I have to say this last thing, which is that um, sorry. Um, which is that invest in experimentation engine. The faster that you can run experiments, the better you can get at this. Uh, so people can find me on LinkedIn, uh, linkedin.

com/in/jordancrawford. Uh, blueprintgtm.com is my website. Jordan@blueprintgtm.

com is where you can um, send me an electronic mail. And I am just so grateful to be invited to speak here today. Thanks, Adam. Thanks, Dale.

Thank you, Jordan.